K. writes:
“Why do your books get better later in the series?”
Just so you know, with the pre-release nerve-wrecking crunch, I read that as “Your first books in the series are not good enough.” 🙂 If you can’t laugh at yourself and all that.
It’s not that the books get better. It just feels that way. A series can be done in two ways: episodic and progressing, and we mostly do progressive route in terms of character development.
Comic books are classic examples of episodic series. A typical episodic Batman comic book goes something like this: Batman faces a thorny problem; Batman gets his butt kicked, literally or figuratively, which causes him to reexamine himself; Batman wins through some clever twist, resolving his internal issue or seemingly making progress in it; but, and this is the crucial part, at the end of the story the status quo is restored and it’s as if the story never happened. The reader gets their emotional payoff, but the world of Batman and Batman himself remain largely unchanged.
Robert Parker’s Spenser stories are written in the similar vein. Children grow up, friendships are formed, cases are solved, but Spencer himself remains unchanged. Conan the Barbarian books are episodic. Sherlock Holmes stories are mostly episodic. Stephanie Plum is episodic. Things sometimes change for a book or two, but they inevitably return to the status quo.
To put this in Kate Daniels turns, Magic Bites and Magic Burns are somewhat episodic. There isn’t that much character progression. Or, another way to look at it, if we took Magic Dreams, but at the end, instead of Jim and Dali having a date, Jim remained oblivious and nothing happened. The characters would’ve come full circle and we could’ve done another story, again drawing on Dali’s unresolved crush for the emotional payoff.
The episodic nature of the series has several advantages. For one, it is easier to write. You’re essentially writing the same book over and over in different ways, starting with the same setting and same character. You never have to one-up yourself and reach for bigger and bigger stakes, you just have to have different stakes. You’re writing another fun adventure in life of the character. For the reader, it means more or less the same emotional experience and payoff. While that sounds like a bad thing, it’s not. Let’s say Writer A writes funny mystery books about a group of quirky characters in a small town. When I buy one of those books, I know exactly what I am going to get: a mystery wrapped in some humor and fun cameos by my favorites. I can count on that. It also has an additional benefit of letting the reader enter the series at any book and not be lost.
The downside of the episodic series is that no permanent change takes place. It’s difficult to read several of these in a row, because after the second or third one, the reader will catch on to the pattern and their attention will start to wander. But, if the writer is releasing one or two books a year and there is a break between the novels, episodic series works and can grow to have a huge fan-base. A lot of you really like the Edge series, which was episodic in nature.
A series that is progressing means permanent change for the characters. It doesn’t just mean that people die, but that their death permanently affects the main character and their world. There is an overall story arc that takes place over the series. The books, although they can stand on their own, are part of the whole. If you put all Kate books together, you will get a very long cohesive novel.
LOTR is a good example of a progressive series. Permanent world-changing things happen. Main characters undergo a significant change. Game of Thrones is a progressive series. Deep changes take place and they can’t be undone. A progressive series is harder to write, because it must have character development, and it’s easy to screw that up by having the character face greater and greater enemies and giving the character bigger and bigger powers in an attempt to one-up the previous books. Occasionally authors fail to create a compelling character arc. The character starts off strong, and the first book blows everyone out of the water, but there is no build or evolution in the sequels, and the second book is okay, and by the third book fans of the series are telling you to not read that one and just stop at two. Progressive series also presents a barrier to the reader of having to read from the first book to get the complete story. Just the other day I saw someone on Twitter recommend KD, and the other person looked at it and said, “Nine books? Eh… I don’t have time for a long series.”
Progressive series requires greater investment on the reader’s part; however, when done right, it offers big payoff. The readers get to watch the characters develop and they form a deeper connection to them. They know that when bad things happen, they could have permanent consequences, and it makes for a gripping read. Reading the next book is almost like catching up with old friends. Progressive series mimics life, because we change as we grow older. As a friend of mine once put it, “Reading Author A books is like eating eclairs. You can’t eat more than two in a row. But when Author B releases a book, it’s an event.” Author A wrote popular episodic books. Author B wrote a progressive series. Look at Game of Thrones. The delay in these books inspires a shocking amount of hate. There is a reason for that. These books link into one giant story. The readers formed personal emotional bonds with these characters. They require the story arc to be resolved.
KD was conceived as an episodic series, but in the third book, we went with something personal for Kate, because the reactions to Bran’s death in Magic Burns taught us that if we hit something personal, we’ll get a big response. So we went with Derek being injured, and once we wrote the book, there was a permanent change in Kate and Curran’s relationship and exposure of Kate’s true magic. That wasn’t a genie we could put back into the bottle. (As an aside, where does the bottle come from in that saying? It was a lamp, not a bottle.) We could have, but returning Kate and Curran to the status quo and sweeping her magic under the rug would be sending a signal to the readers that nothing in the series had long-term consequences. It’s one thing to write an episodic series; it’s another to wave the progression of the characters in from of the audience and then take it back. It’s the same reason why we canned an amnesia plot at one point in the series. The readers had invested in the relationship and throwing amnesia into it would be just jerking their chain for no reason. A lot of people really like Kate and Curran as a couple now, forgetting sometimes that they started as a paranoid, borderline-crazy merc with no friends and a cold arrogant ass of a Beastlord who thought all humans wanted to murder his people.
Hidden Legacy is a progressive series. The characters undergo permanent change. It’s even more apparent with Hidden Legacy, because the success of these books is riding in a larger part on character development. That brings us to the other drawback of the progressive series. For the story arc to work, we have to start at the lowest point of character development, at a place where the readers connect with the characters (hopefully) but they also see large issues. Nevada, who is a likeable, selfless, competent young woman, still lives with her parents, has been hiding her magic and not really practicing it because it’s easier, and has really strong preconceived notions about how society works, not all of which are accurate. On other hand, we have Mad Rogan, a war hero who may or may not be a psychopath, who has all these resources and is seemingly doing nothing with them and whose moral code is shrouded in mystery. Does he even have one? (Spoiler: he does.) Over the course of the trilogy, we got to pull these characters apart and show them change. Nevada and Rogan of Wildfire are not Nevada and Rogan of Burn For Me, and that’s what makes it fun. The readers will see these characters grow and evolve, and hopefully enjoy the process.
So that’s why the later books in the series seem better than the earlier ones. It’s because you, as readers, got to see the entirety of the ride, witnessed all the changes, and saw the characters become the people worth of friendship and commitment.
This was so fun to read! Appreciate how dedicated you both are to keeping fans updated on the blog and social, as well as giving us occasional peeks into your life and writing process.
So looking forward to reading White Hot! *makes grabbing motions*
Any suggestions on what to read after White Hot and while I wait for Wildfire? Your recs are always a hit!
“Makes grabbing motions” — LOL!
I’m not trying to hose you with this comment, but, I have to say with the KD books, I have a difficult time choosing a favorite. I truly love them all, but for different reasons. In my mind, this doesn’t make one better than the other, but equal, just having different high points in each one. Because of the strength of each book, I can enjoy endless rereads and never hit boredom. There is just so much to love in each book. Yes, I see the progression of the characters (maturing?), but this doesn’t cause me to love the later books more than the earlier ones. There are so many treasured quotes/scenes/funny bits in each book. Having said that, my favorite line in the entire series (to date, of course), is in Bites. It still makes me laugh out loud. So, Thank You for investing so much effort into your writing. I hope you can feel the appreciation coming back to you from your fans.
I agree. I recently re-read all the books in the KD series because I was jonesing for Wildfire (makes no sense, I know, but I’ve already read BFM so many times that it doesn’t work anymore), and while some of my favourite scenes are in Shifts and Binds, other books have a unique magic (pun intended) of their own. I suppose it’s because this time I knew what will happen in the next book, so I read all events with that perspective.
I especially loved all the hot tub/tub scenes and Kate later remarking that tubs always get her in trouble. I am curious, what was your favourite line in Bites?
“Here, kitty, kitty”?
Oh yah, it does’t matter whatever else Kate says that is the best, although “Grangma gave me a new one” is a very very close 2nd.
It was more of an action than a spoken line. It was close to the beginning when she was first in Greg’s office. She had discovered the power words he’d left her and she had taken them for her own. She had tripped a residual ward and suffered from a pretty strong magic backlash. She was looking at herself in a little mirror and discovered her hair was glowing!! She touched it, shook her head, but the glow remained. Then….she growled at it! This probably wasn’t a major thought by Ilona, but the growling just kills me every time. Yeah, I’m weird that way, but growling at your hair is hysterical. (to me)
Thank you so much for taking the time to write this! It is an excellent, thoughtful response to a question that has been lurking in my mind with regard to another author, who writes progressive 3 to 4-book series but whose quality tends to deteriorate over the arcs. I greatly enjoy all the various informative articles and posts you have written, and find that the added understanding you provide increases my reading pleasure in general.
Thank You! I love your books. And I love how you explain the science of writing. Happy Almost Book Birthday!
I agree, this was an awesome post!! As far as what to read, I found a good story while staring fixedly at the Ilona Andrews section at the bookstore, wishing for more books to appear… “The Bear and the Nightingale” by Katherine Arden.
Thank you! This explains so much. It’s kind of cool that one can still learn stuff about what one likes when one is almost sixty-one years old.
Now I know why I find the Evanovich Stephanie Plum books so tedious after liking the first few quite well. It’s not just the episodic nature of the series, but the constant “too stupid to live” that grates on my nerves. Similarly, although Robb’s Eve Dallas series has a lot of repetition, the is still a lot of progress in Eve’s ability to relate to others: not just to her husband, but to a widening group of friends. I have my doubts that a feral child would have progressed as much as she had when she met her husband, but her continuing growth keeps me hooked on the series.
Exactly what was thinking. I’m several books behind on the Plum books because of the back and forth about which guy she’s with. Just pick one finally! You can still do episodic, but it doesn’t work with relationships. I definitely don’t spend the money anymore on her new releases.
And I think the Horde is the Horde because you guys don’t do episodic. BTW, why do you consider the Edge books episodic? There was kind of a formula, if you look at it that way, but you switched characters with every book and the characters weren’t clones, so it doesn’t feel episodic to me.
They are episodic, because the world is more or less unchanged. No matter how badly Spider and the Hand are beaten, they are back with the vengeance in the next book.
I resemble both of these remarks. I also want to add that, considering the great start that each new series of books you write makes, the fact that each series seems to “get better” could be largely a growing comfort with the subject matter. When you know the world that is being written about, then you are less likely to be eying the action and staging around the story and more likely to be paying attention to actions taking place.
You guys write great stuff and I re-read the books early in each series as often as I do the ones that come after.
Re: genie in the bottle, the lamp has an open spout. He emerges when the lamp is rubbed and he is summoned. But possibly he could emerge *on his own initiative*. I think the genie in the bottle is corked in? (Don’t ask me how he breathes.). I think people like the illusion that the genie can be kept under control. There is probably a better explanation!
I was wondering if it came about from the show “I Dream of Jeannie”. She was in a bottle.
I think it’s actually from putting a djinn back in a bottle. And a lot of fantasy has djinni imprisoned in bottles.
This has an analysis that is pretty much that, but also gets into the Arabian Nights origins.
http://www.giantglacier.com/the-origin-of-the-genie-in-the-lamp/
Re. etymology of “putting the genie back in the bottle”: an oil lamp is a bottle with oil in the bottom and a wick. The shape may vary, but that’s the concept. There are even instructions online for making oil lamps from empty beer or wine bottles.
Please know that we love the first books too – besides the fact that they are the starting point of the progression (which is definitively my fav type of story) – they have awesome witty banter and amazing world building. Each time a new Magic book comes out, I re-read from the beginning and I enjoy the first books even knowing where the story is going (or maybe because).
Thank you, thank you for all your hard work!!
Just 2 more sleeps!
Yup, first books are also beloved, they’re what brought us into the fold to begin with and are their own kind of awesome 😉
Nope, only 1 more sleep for me. I will be waiting to read White Hot as soon as it arrives on my Fire.
My sister in law gave me a big bag of books that contained a copy of Magic Strikes. Maybe to say it changed my life is a slight (only slight) overstatement, but it certainly catapulted you two into my all time favorite authors. By the time I went back and read the first two books I was already invested, and I’m so glad you decided to build the series! I don’t even remember one other book from that bag. Thank you for doing what you do!
Never really realised/paid attention to it, but now that I think of it, yup, series can be divided in either episodic or progressive. I suppose I like both. Thou I prefer progressive cuz while I don’t mind it being episodic on the way, overall I want it to slowly progress and come to an end/conlusion…if that makes sense XD
Thank you for letting us all read the answer and explaining it so thoroughly, it’s always interesting to learn new things and all that involves making of a book/series ^^
This was an awesome post. If you ever have a lull or give up fiction (please don’t!), you could start writing about how to write well.
Or teaching it.
This is a great post and sooo true! I do enjoy some of the episodic series but I would never sit and re-read all of them before another is released. I find those books comforting but not thrilling. I love the potential of the ongoing story arc with the potential for huge pay off and/or loss.
Exactly!
I’d started the Rachel Morgan series years ago, but let it lapse for awhile. Recently I went through it listening in my car on CDs, and I think I let it lapse because Morgan was just too stupid to live. The later books were better, though. I liked the world Kim Harrison built, and finally Morgan evolved.
What a great post. I have recently started a few new books and have put them down in the middle of the book because it was easy to predict what was going to happen. When that happens it’s mostly because the characters are making obvious mistakes that they should know better. It makes me sad for the book, and sad that I put it down. Your books have always been captivating, and I look forward to your release. I’m coming to your book signing this Tuesday in Woodstock, with my pre- teen daughter Caroline.YEA. .I am going to suggest either Kate Daniels for her or OFS. Hey does anyone have any other books for pre teens to read? She just read the Lightening Theif and does not want to continue with it and is just OK about the Divergent series. Cheers, Melissa
The Susan Cooper series is awesome, and the Lloyd Alexander series is very popular.
Patricia McKillip Changeling Sea is wonderful (wish she had written a follow-up) and Robin McKinley. The Blue Sword is part of a limited series that is just amazing. These are all female centered.
Oops Hero and the Crown is the prequel to The Blue Sword. Sigh…..I grew up with Andre Norton and C.L. Moore for strong female characters. Much thicker on the ground these days, thankfully.
Try Alan Garner’s The Weirdstone of Brisingaman followed be The Moon of Gomrath; also Ursula K. Le Guin’s Earthsea books.
Oh, and C S Lewis’s Narnia series too…
Try the Soprano Sorceress series by LE Modessit. It crosses from current world to fantasy and is appropriate for a girl her age. I loved these books. Also Devon Monk’s House Immortal series .
Try Tamora Pierce’s Tortall universe. Her characters also grow.
Fantastic ideas ladies! I have read Tampa price and she is great. That’s a V-8 moment for me. Thanks everyone!
Seconding Robin McKinley (many of hers are preteen suitable, though The Blue Sword and Beauty are still high in my comfort/reread list) and Tamora Pierce. Also, Patricia Wrede (Enchanted Forest Chronicles, Magician’s Ward duology, Kate & Cecy series, The Raven Ring, Frontier Magic series), maybe Megan Whalen Turner (Queen’s Thief series), Diana Wynne Jones (Did your daughter see Miyazaki’s Howl’s Moving Castle? Here’s the original!) …
I love The Blue Sword. It’s a regular re-read for me. (I read The Hero and the Crown and liked it, but not enough to reread it.)
David Weber young adult treecat series. His Honor Harrington series is more for adults but I also bought his young adult series which my nieces and nephews passed around along with Harry Potter series. Then I heard how different books were from movies. 🙂 The Blue Sword by Robin McKinley I have re-read many times and had to buy a new copy of last time I needed to re-read. Anne McCaffrey’s psionics series or dragon riders of pern series– this would depend on age and interests as would Andre Norton’s beastmaster series which my local library classifies as young adult/ adult. Mercedes Lackey Valdemar series. Some of her anthologies have what I consider mature stories that I did not understand until I was in college.
I loved the treecat series. Left them with the library when I moved.
David Eddings had a couple of good series..The Belgariad (starts with Pawn of Prophecy) and the Ellinium (starts with the Diamond Throne). My daughter and I both loved those and still often re-read them. He has more current books, but these were our favorites. Another good one to me is the Young Wizards series by Diane Duane. I think there are 9 in that one so far. I loved it (it is still one of my re-read favorites) but my daughter found it a bit slow. All of these were read by my daughter as a pre-teen, but she’s 30+ now, so that should tell you the age of the series. 🙂
Tamora Pierce, Garth Nix, Diana Wynne Jones, Isobelle Carmody, Phillip Pullman – these are all authors I read and reread (and still reread now) as a pre-teen and teenager.
Try Sherwood Smith. She has some teen and YA books that are great. When your daughter is a bit older, she can continue in the same universe with the Inda series.
Andre Norton and Robert Heinlein’s juveniles were the mainstays of my childhood. I personally wore out the library’s copy of The Hobbit. (I know because I could look at who checked it out on the list inside the cover. This was way before libraries had a bar code check out. I’m old.)
Whatever she wants to read – as long as she reads. I never stopped my children from reading because the books were not “literary” enough. I personally find much of “literature” boring, no matter how much of it my teachers insisted I read. My kids were not bored, graduated college with honors, and still read well into their 30’s.
Good post. After reading I realized why I like some series better than others. Counting the hours til the release.
I forsee a loooonnnnngggg lunch at work on Tuesday.
Jeannie from I dream of Jeannie was in a bottle not a lamp ?
I haven’t really seen them as getting better, just richer as we learn more about the world and characters. I love the earlier books just as much in each of your series. Something in me was just really thrilled with the rakshasas and the Midnight Games in Magic Strikes. That one continues to be favorite KD.
It was also the first time Curran really showed his devotion. Sigh.
I thought Magic Strikes had a more wide-ranging and comprehensive plot than the first two books. The Pack was involved, the Rakhasas were were a larger enemy, the Red Guard was introduced and Kate got into a tub with Curran.
Well good or bad I have been in too many forums discussing the Kate Daniels series and this comment is almost always said in some form by many people (including me) “It is a great series but it really takes about 3 books to really get hooked on it”. It seems that we remember pieces of the first 2 books but it was book 3 Magic Strikes that locked a great many of us into the series for the long haul 🙂
Not exactly sure what that means but it does seem to be a recurring comment among your readers.
I was recently telling someone I turned on to the series that KD3 was my favorite book. They are all good stories but that one is the one that made me fall hard. Probably explains why.
Nope I habe to disagree. The authors had me hooked per the pre-equal, A Questionable client!
I hate to say this, but I have to give credit to Renee Raudman for getting me hooked on the Series. Ilona Andrews was a different direction than what I had been reading (Stephanie Plum, J.D. Robb) and was wanting to try something different. It took two tries but I convinced myself to stick with it. Glad I did. KD got me to read other authors that I have totally enjoyed as well (Frost, Briggs, Jones, Harper). I think the progressive story telling is what keeps me coming back and wanting more. I almost gave up on Stephanie after about 5 books because the story never changed. JD is repeating but she does grow a bit as the series grows.
Now, my question is (and I’m afraid I know the answer), can you take a progressive series and turn it into an episodic series now that KD has come to a progressive conclusion? Is that what the side books are for, to keep the series progressive?
I like the JD Robb books more for the growth of the side characters as Eve seems pretty much fully baked to me. Peabody and Ian, Charles and (the doctor), Mavis and (the designer) are more interesting to me.
I did not get to read “A Questionable Client” until I had read several of the books but it might have hooked me in if I had 🙂
This is great! I am a big fan of stand alone, more episodic type things like the edge series. They are surprisingly hard to find honestly. Every fantasy series seems to be book one of 75 now.
But I don’t mind progressive stories that have a designated or clear end point. (i was traumatized by Robert Jordan as a child, so I am very picky.)
I am super excited about the rest of hidden legacy and am eagerly awaiting my audible download!
Ooo Shinobi! Me too re Robert Jordan. Read the first Wheel book without knowing it went on and on and on. Loved the first and read the second and that was that.
Often I find the last book of the series the least favorite for many reasons. I don’t want it to stop. To many loose ends to tie up. The author tries to do to much and the ending is not realistic. the best example of this was the Sookie Stackhouse series. A great series was completely ruined with the last book. To many characters and an ending out of left field.
I so agree. I really loved that series, but I feel like the author (whom I still love) was pressured into continuing the series long after she lost interest in it.
I agree. I loved that series early on and then I just stopped reading the series. I did like her Weather Warden series and liked the Outcast series the most.
RACHEL CAINE wrote the Weather Wardens and Outcast.
Charlaine Harris wrote the Sookie books.
Charlaine Harris does not have any other series that is that long most quit after the fourth book. I think there is one character she sporadically goes back to but I’m afraid she was taking a leap too far on the Stackhouse series. Actually she did very well until the end but I won’t even buy the last book. Another author that I was reading, Alexi Aaron, ran into the over the top skills and sort of punished her protagonist instead of making good progression scenarios. I am trying a spin-off series to see if she figured this out as otherwise she’s a good writer.
Absolutely agree Margaret. Love Charlaine Harris and Sookie but the last 3/4 books were not for me.
This was an interesting read, and makes a lot of sense. It never occured to me that Magic Bites and Magic Burns were episodic while Magic Strikes was progressive. That may be one way to explain why I fell in love with the series with Magic Strikes. And I’ve loved every Kate Daniels book after that.? Thanks for writing characters who grow with the series.
Thanks for explaining things I didn’t even know about. The very first book of yours I read and (extremely) liked was “A mere formality”. I remember saying what kind of title is this? What does it mean? Who wrote it? Hmm.. Bazinga! I got hooked. I love all your books and I would really love sequels of all . Thanks again.
I’ve always detested amnesia plots, and I never knew exactly why. I think you just nailed it with your explanation – and made me understand myself a little better. 🙂 Thank you for not going that route.
It’s good to know the difference between episodic and progressing. The reason some books feel like the same and others feel that our hearts have been torn out of our body and trying not to throw the book/tablet/phone against the wall.
????
I loved the first six or so Stephanie Plum books because they were fun, quick reads that gave me a nice escape. But long about book six, my brain needed some sort of character and story progression.
I love the way you handle the Kate Daniels series, because it does have a strong relationship that feels like it blossomed and grew authentically, but the novels are story driven rather than relationship driven. Even before Kate and Curran got together, there was individual growth in each of them. A little more of Kate’s story is revealed in each book… You definitely kept my interest by doing that. Most authors are hesitant to bring the couple together because it slows the progression, but again, since your stories are about so much more than the relationship, Kate and Curran’s coupling didn’t slow down the story at all.
I also think the characters feel fleshed out a bit more due to Gordon writing Curran’s- and now Rogan’s- POVs. That whole “look at it from my point of view”. Up to that point, the story just seemed more Kate’s. After the first POV, though, Curran was more there, if you get my meaning.
Yeah, it’s aweful how your books are getting better and better. Kidding aside, I and lots of UF fans that I corresponded with agree that Burn For Me was one of the best first books in a series that we’ve read, like ever! I just re-read it as well as the generous excerpt of White Hot and now I don’t know how I am going to survive the next 36h! And yes, during the long wait between book one and book two I have been cursing your publisher for the delay several times, at least once a month!
The first books in series are always tough for me to get emotionally connected too, it wasn’t until I reread Magic Bites, after I had read the other KD books many times, that I loved it.
Thank you for this thoughtful and illuminating post. Not long now to getting your next book. The date is circled on my calendar!
I love your books because although the characters grow and develop throughout the series they remain essentially true to their core selves. You don’t “jump the shark” and suddenly decide to have them do things completely out of left field, leaving the reader feeling completely betrayed. They mature, their perspective changes, but I’ve never been left feeling that you had them take an action just to shock (or because you were bored) but because it made sense for the character and the plot. Thanks for that.
I agree with your post for the most part, but your writing definitely improved, and tightened up as the series progressed. I noticed the same thing with Jim Butcher’s Harry Dresden books. I like the early books for KD and Dresden, but the series really get much better after a couple of books. I attribute this to practice makes perfect. I really prefer series with character development. I enjoy falling in love with the characters. I also enjoyed the first few Stephanie Plum books, but now find them predictable. I like it that people age and change in a series. That’s why I like rereading all of your series. Y’all are phenomenal storytellers.
When King Salomon trapped the genies, he used many different vessels. Aladdin genie was trapped in a lamp. But the fisherman’s genie was trapped in a bootleg which was thrown into the sea. Another was trapped in a mirror and a forth was traded in a crystal. Sherrazade had a thousand and one tales. Many of which dealt with the jinn. Also the Quran has many tales of he Jin as well, including the tale of how one is tethered to a rock in the middle of Jerusalem and that is why the city is in constant termoil.
Like everyone else, thank you for the explanation. To me, I think authors start out writing an episodic story because they aren’t sure how the book will sell. If the book sells, they may switch to a progressive story. Either way, a good story will keep me interested.
What I don’t like is when an author whiplash the reader (meaning something comes out of the blue) and doesn’t explain the change.
Really interesting. I had never broken series down this way. I do remember this being brought up in a Farscape commentary how in most shows, the lead and world stays mostly the same emotionally {say, Stargate for an example} but in Farscape, the bad stuff counted and stayed with the characters. It’s why I liked Farscape better.
It’s what makes the TV shows Buffy (and Angel) so remarkable, imo. Everyone on Buffy changed over the seven seasons, and while Angel himself may not have moved as far, Wesley transformed on that show. Even Dollhouse showed characters evolving, and Firefly was cancelled too soon for much change. Most TV shows don’t progress, although most don’t have Joss Whedon behind them.
There’s another genie in the Arabian Nights which is found by a fisherman in a bottle or a jar with Suleiman’s seal on it. I think that’s the origin, since the story is actually about how the fisherman manages to get the genie back into the bottle.
I’ve always been a fan of progressive vs episodic. It used to bother me, as a young kid trying to get into longer books like my cousins, that none of the tweenager/chapter books ever DID anything long term. The very next book or arc (later in the sweet valley high books) everyone was where they started with nary a mention that Girl A ran over Girl B for stealing Guy A.
I know now that a lot of those series were ghost written and had series bibles but not long term progressive arcs, but at 12 I threw many a tantrum (privately in my hand written journal) that the “author” ignored all the development AGAIN.
Now I like continuity. I WANT it. Crave it. My brain likes structure and progressive series have a structure I can depend on (that is if I don’t maybe enjoy a char death in this book, at least I know at some point the wheel should turn so it affects the other chars I care about and give me closure). The most episodic I get is maybe some Romance series (even then tho it’s hardly true).
So I appreciate your enunciating the pros & cons of both!
Love the authorlords. ? Thank you for explaining why I love your series and not others. So many series I get half way through and can’t read another. Nothing really changes. Same characters, new badies, a few major life events but the same results. The story line doesn’t evolve and after 4 books I just decide I can’t take any more. Thank you for being amazing. I’m in awe of your awesomeness.
PS I do rank your series up there with LOTR and Games of Thrones. Might not be the length of an epic fantasy, but just as good. ❤
This was very interesting. Thank you.
Progressive stories are far more interesting, but what happens to the poor readers when the author does not finish them? I have been waiting 25 years for the last book by Diane Duane in the ‘Door’ series. (There is finally hope for it this year.) It is an open wound in my brain or heart when things like this happen.
I have read articles by writers saying that we readers don’t really have a right to expect a series to finish if the author loses interest and does not feel s/he can do justice to it. I now go into any progressive series knowing that my feelings may be at risk if the author does not finish it.
I still buy Stephanie Plum out of habit, whereas I’ve bought ‘White Hot’ out of choice. Perhaps that shows where my preferences lie between episodic and progressive. However, it is a relief to know that the last book in the series has been written and I won’t be disappointed.
I can name a favorite, but I think it may have been because of how I read it though. We had to drive up to Atlanta just as Magic Breaks was released, so I put off loading it on my Kindle until right before we left. Hubs never lets me drive, and it takes 8 hours from where we live on the east coast of Florida.
I laughed, I cried, I cheered, I gasped (probably some cursing in there as well) ; there was a constant physical response as I read what the characters were put through. Normal reading for me is a contained, internal landscape – my husband was fascinated waiting to see what I did next. Needless to say I devoured that book and was literally out of breath when I finished.
The Author Lords are true Masters of their craft to be able to pull that kind of response out of me, considering my nickname has always been the “Ice Queen”!
I have a love/hate thing going on right now with White Hot. I can’t wait to see what happens, but at the same time I’m dreading the 30 days of waiting for Wildfire! ❤️❤️
Don’t want to ruin your day, but it’s more like 60 days of waiting for Wildfire, which releases on July 25th.
Better than another year. So, when will you know if the HL series will continue?
Thank you for this explanation. It helped me put a finger on why I have basically given up on one my favorite series (never as good as Ilona Andrews series of course). I bought the first 11 books and when she released the 12th book this past fall I borrowed it from the library just incase it was more of the same. I didn’t even finish it. Actually i read the first quarter then read the last two chapters because i could see it the ending coming a mile away. I assume that the series is supposed to be progressive and the world around the main character changes very dramatically with every book which i love. But the main character doesn’t change AT ALL. She makes the same mistakes, never learns from them and then her power changes and she gets stronger and saves the world (again, over and over, the same way for 12 BOOKS) the same way she did in the previous books. Not only does the heroine never change but the way she interacts with people and the way they treat her doesn’t change either! I think in the first 3 books she made some major steps forward but hasn’t changed since then. It feels like the author doesn’t know how to end the series or is milking it so just keeps expanding the world with more characters. In doing so she is diluting what i loved about the series to begin with which was the interactions between the heroines friends and family. Sadly I think i’m done. Sorry rant over i just borrowed book 12 this past week and i am really frustrated!
So thanks for the explanation and for writing amazing, wonderful books that I can dig my teeth into and know that i’m never going to be disappointed. Also thank you for knowing how to end the series on a high note! Can’t wait for Tuesday!!
I think this summed up perfectly two very different approaches to serial books (and from a reader perspective, both are great depending on the mood I may be in on a given day), but as a rule, I find that progressing series, when done right (and honestly, I find that your progressing series are among my very favorites, which is why I stick with them, and snap up any new ones you guys write as I find them), are the ones that are the best to reread (and you hit it on the head about reading back to back, as I have done that more than once with the KD books, and I think I would have had to break it up if they had stayed episodic).
I love reading these posts from you, and just want to say please keep doing what you do, because I love knowing that I can always depend on your books being not just good, but books that I will reread over and over again 🙂
Reading an intelligently written book, ie yours, has really spoiled me. Finding other authors is a continuing scavenger hunt, but one must press on.
I found this explanation really helpful. I love books where the characters grow and this allow you to care about them. Anticipation for the next book then increases exponentially. Originally I liked the Plum books but have stopped buying them as I find them so repetitive whereas I buy the author lord books and the Nalini Singh Psy/changling and Guild hunter series in both e and hard copy format on preorder as soon as they are announced. These books can be reread multiple times and you find new facets on each read. Thank you for hours of pleasure.
Have you thought about writing a book about writing? You sort of already doing that when you answer questions here on the blog, but your responses are always so interesting and informative. I would totally buy a book about writing from you two, even though I fear my chances of becoming a writer are slimming down to nothing.
Thank you for this explanation. I thought I knew all of this but just couldn’t quite figure out why some stories just weren’t as meaty as yours. Your characters are more flushed out in each book, yet some other authors, even with a great story, had no depth. This is why any and all of your stories would go with me if I was banished to a deserted island. (please someone banish me!)
To be honest, I consider it quite rude to say KD has gotten better with time. Every book in the KD series is written extremely well, edited very well, doesn’t make me go “wtf” with strange things and from the first sentence you showed us your extremely well developed world building skills.
I’ve read sooooo many books (according to amazon + good reads + my library file at least 3.000 books) and there are only a handful of authors that are an automatic buy for me. (Ilona Andrews, Jim Butcher, Terry Pratchett (RIP) to name my absolute favorites). EVERYTHING from Ilona Andrews falls in that category, because I know I will love it. You hooked me for life with the first page of KD 1 and that’s that. I reread / relisten to the whole series before a new one comes out, just so I’m really up-to-date – you can’t do that with books that aren’t wonderful.
Of course we feel the books are … bigger? I don’t know how to describe it, other than I’ve become attached to each and every character and I love most of them. It broke my heart when we lost Aunt B (I literally cried in shock and couldn’t continue reading for about 30 minutes, I was so shaken), it makes me go melty and gooey when Kate and Curran are flirting, I can’t wait to read more about Jim and Dali (they are hilarious) and it all feels like a second family almost. So of course it feels like the story has become better, because we desperately want to know what comes next! But the writing has ALWAYS been premium primo extra super duper wonderful and for that I thank you.
Thank you so much! I’ve always wondered why I got so sick of certain series, but, after taking a three year or so break, I can read all three to four new ones and enjoy them again.
Other series though… I want them so bad that I can barely wait for the new release!
Episodic vs progressive seems to be a definite deciding factor in what series will be a favorite as opposed to an author that I enjoy once in a while.
Great post! I enjoy both types of books, it really depends on my mood. Do I feel like reading something easy and predictable or do I want the emtional rollercoaster? I am slowly going through the In Death Series and I really like it because I know at the end they will be back in their huge mansion safe and sound. Its an easy pattern to follow. But I also love how far the KD character have come especially Curran who has gone from hating Mercs to leading them.
Thank you Ilona Andrews for the education. I do not recognize LOTR nor am I familiar with Game of Thrones. I stopped watching TV over 4 years ago as too depressing for me. However, I am a fan of JD Robb and I would agree that Eve and Roake are progressive not episodic. Yes, your edge series is episodic but not long enough for me to get bored with the cookie cutter-ness. I have a sib that likes Christine Feehan whom I dislike because I like progressive stories. I also am not a fan of hot torrid sex scenes either but according to my ex husband that is because I am a prude. Personally I thought ice witch (but spelled with a b) was more accurate while seeing personal therapist after I found out about the long term mistress but *shrug* ….. [Yes, I gave him the divorce he asked for and walked away. So did mistress after another year and she married someone else. *grin*]
I would say I have eclectic taste. However, I do tend toward progressive stories based on your definition. My book case is full of JD Robb, Robyn Carr (virgin river series and thunder point series), Patricia Briggs (both series), David Weber (Honor Harrington series only as young adult treecat series has been permanently borrowed), Issac Asimov (black spider stories which are mysteries so may be considered episodic), Lois McMasters Bujold, David Drake (Adele Mundy books), Randall Garrett, Mercedes Lackey, Louis L’Amour, Anne McCaffrey, Elizabeth Moon, Andre Norton (beastmaster series which I have re-read several times and beastmaster book only shares name with movie and a select few other), John Ringo (special circumstances series), James Schmidt (he makes me think. I have re-read multiple times the republished [by Baen] Trigger and Telzey stories. some of the others give me nightmares even as adult) … Once in a while I do read episodic books such as Jayne Castle’s Harmony series and Erle Stanley Gardner’s Perry Mason (I have never watched movies or tv shows so I do not know how well books correlate.)
Thank you for the making me think blog. I am so looking forward to White Hot and book 3. Yes I pre-ordered. Enjoy the book tour which is necessary evil.
>I do not recognize LOTR
LOTR = Lord of the Rings, the classic high fantasy trilogy by J. R. R. Tolkien.
Wow Lynn, thank you for the list of authors. I too have J.D. Robb, Patricia Briggs, Lois McMaster Bujold, Louis Lamour, Jayne Castle on my bookshelves so I will copy your list and give the authors I haven’t read a try.
I assume you’ve tried your favourites under different pen names : Nora Roberts ( J.D. robb), Jayne Ann Krentz(Jayne Castle , Amanda Quick) .
If you like Lois McMaster Bujold try Sharon Lee and Steve Miller ( important to read in order I believe) though their use of cliff hanger endings in the last few books is becoming annoying. I also enjoyed a military scifi series (with almost zero romance)by Jack Campbell ( the Lost Fleet).
Other authors on my bookshelves/ iPad include Sue Grafton, Georgette Heyer, Janice Kay Johnson, Kendra Elliott, Julia Spencer Fleming, Carla Kelly, Kelley Armstrong, Linnea Sinclair. You may enjoy some of these authors too.
Frances! You marvelous person! A Georgette Heyer shout-out, the best of the best. You made my night. Thanks
I thought I was the only one so annoyed at the cliffhangers in the last few Liaden books! I was going to wait a few years before resuming the series but I succumbed to temptation and read “The Gathering Edge” (another Theo book).
It is killing me that the Daav and Aelliana story has been left hanging.
I have all the authors you list, plus I would recommend Donna Andrews, Lindsay Buroker and Louise Penny.
Your (including commenters here) bookshelves look a lot like mine. I will check out those I am not familiar with.
Prominent on my booklist are also Wen Spencer, Eileen Wilkes, Thea Harrison, Mercedes Lackey, Kerry Greenwood (Earthly Delights more than Phryne Fisher), Tanya Huff, Michelle Sagara’s “Cast in” series, and Nalini Singh (both series). I will confess a guilty pleasure in Stephanie Laurens Cynster series, which is almost progressive, but mostly episodic. I will also read and reread Robert Asprin and Heinlein – “Funny once, funny twice, funny always.”
Thank you for the ideas.
Oops. Mercedes Lackey already out there.
Also, Yes! Georgette Heyer! I am acquiring them for my Kindle list now.
And you have explained so clearly why I like progressive series. No growth=excessive repetition and I end up frustrated because the heroine/hero just doesn’t ever learn or grow. Which is why I quit reading Stephanie Plum; the characters were regressing and becoming sad caricatures of the people in the first few books.
Your books keep me reading–no cheap tricks for shock value, you understand that your readers really care about the characters and have become invested in them, and you allow your characters to learn and grow. I’m looking forward to the next editions!
Great article. Upon reflection it explains a lot about the books i still read but do not purchase. I stopped buying the Plum books and the Savich FBI books years ago but do get them through the library. I haven’t quite gotten there with the In Death books yet but it is close. I really like those characters but the last couple of books i have wanted to firmly apply my boot and move something along faster. I loved The Obsession and The Collector but am going to library the Sundown book. The new trilogy sounds interesting though.
I made a list of recommended authors and books. I’m always on the lookout for new authors especially YA mostly because there is less vulgar language in them.
Tuesday is my day off, happy, happy.
Great explanation. Thank you.
Like Elaine and others in the comments above I have more or less given up on Evanovich’s Stephanie Plum because she never learns anything, can’t decide between Morelli and Ranger, is still broke, etc etc. I realise that Stephanie’s TSTL decisions are the basis of the humour but, after not reading any of the “teen” books and then picking up Takedown Twenty at the thrift shop where I volunteer, I found I haven’t missed anything.
Contrast that with J.D. Robb’s In Death series. Whenever I talk about the books to other enthusiasts they all comment on how much they enjoy that Eve’s capacity for relationships has changed and developed. Through the books we see Eve learning about herself, how relationships work and, as a result, she changes. I believe readers are still buying the series after 30 books is because we are invested in Eve and the other characters- Roarke, Somerset, Mavis, Peabody, Nadine, etc etc.
I enjoy all our Authorlords’ several series. I never realised why I really became hooked on the KD series till about books 3 or 4 until I read Ilona’s comments above. I enjoyed The Edge though at times it was a bit dark for my usual taste in reading. Because it was so well written and I cared about the characters, I still enjoyed the stories. I love both the Innkeeper series and Hidden Legacy series because the characters are great, the stories are fascinating and the world building is terrific. I think why I really love IA books is because there is always an internal consistency in the worlds created and the characters are people we grow to care about so we care what happens to them.
The really good news for me that it is almost 8 am Monday 29th here in Australia so this time tomorrow the long wait should be over and I hope to be reading White Hot. ?
Great characters and great worldbuilding. What’s not to love?
The major motivation for teaching is a person can’t write. Ilona Andrew’s can write. Yes, I enjoy and even refer others to the tutorials. I want your writing more than I want your teaching.
A national movie critic recently panned the latest Pirates of the Caribbean, mainly no script and no progression. He missed the point. It was pure slap stick and Keystone Koppish. I had a lot of fun watching it. Will I see it again? No!
Woohoo! Amazon just said my copy of White Hot has shipped!
Of course, the mail comes late afternoon here, and who wants to wait that long, so I’ll start reading it as soon as it hits my Kindle tomorrow night.
(Heh. Autocorrect tried to change Woohoo to boohoo. snicker)
?
I am praying for an Amazon glitch that will release my pre-order early 🙂
Amen!
Mine dropped yesterday (29th in AU) and I made myself wait to start reading it on the train to work today. Otherwise I would have skipped sleeping and works too cray-cray at the moment for me to cope with that.
My paperback copy actually arrived today and I inhaled it. Thank goodness we only have to wait a few months for the next book.
Great job, Authorlords! The Horde will be appeased.
For a little while anyway.
Just finished White Hot, so glad we don’t have to wait a year for the next one! Maybe now I can find time to finish knitting my sock.
Just so you know (which I’m sure you do, cause it’s not just me)… I love you two as authors. Your humour, character development, and worlds are amazing, it’s like you said… like coming home to hang out with friends, and catching up with family each time I sit down to read. I love Kate and Curran and all the characters you have created in Kate’s world. As well as Nevada and Mad, and all the rest. I have read the entire Kate Daniels series at least 5 times now, and always reread the previous books. Your book releases are events, and I can’t get enough. Speaking of which, after Tuesday, I’ll start the series again. I just wanted you to know that you two are beyond talented, your books are so appreciated and I am a huge fan.
Well said and seconded. 🙂
I absolutely agree. I’ve been trying to figure out why some authors grab me from the first page and others with compelling stories make me work to get interested and I”ve come to the conclusion it is rhythm and pacing. Ilona Andrews has this in spades. Great humour, wonderful characters and story-lines, aside, their pacing is like a drug to my brain. When I’m having a tough day, I’ll revisit one of their stories and my brain dumps the cortisol and relaxation comes back in. Thank you!
A somewhat extreme example of a progressive series has to be Weber’s Harrington books. Another form can be the shared universe like 1632. One ambiguous example has to be Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes. I don’t know whether the character of Holmes changes enough to qualify as progressive.
I’m really glad to know I’m not the only one who stopped buying Stephanie Plum. I already knew why, but now I have the correct terminology. Thank you!!
I “tripped” into Magic Strikes at a used book store. After reading just a few pages, I had to find the 1st two books & now you’re on my “absolutely must have” list. My husband hasn’t read your books but he loves having me read parts of them to him.
Thank you again for the many hours of pleasure your books have given me!
I’ll rent them from the library, for a vacation mindless read. But spend my $$ no thank you. All my favorite authors have progressive series. 🙂
I like your explanation of episodic vs. progressive series. Everyone I know criticize me for a quirk I have…I read the end of every book I read, first. For me it is not about the ending, but the journey to get there. I love the journey, the ride… the excitement of how will I get from point a to point z.. It is the same with movies, people can tell me the endings and it spoils nothing for me. In fact, it heightens the experience for me.
I also, as others have stated above, love your teamed approach to writing. I believe you bring the best of how men and how women write into one complete unit. I know this statement included some generalizations, but I stand by my opinion.
I always read the end first, I enjoy the book more that way. If I don’t like the ending I don’t read the book. Sad but true.
Sharon and Hayley, I read the first chapter or so and then go to the end. I enjoy the book so much more when I know what is happening and where the story is leading. Also, there is enough uncertainty in life without having it in books as well. I have ME/CFS, which means all my adrenal levels are messed up. I can’t afford to get my adrenaline going over anything or I might be ill for a week. This is why I much prefer books to e-readers.
It’s lovely to find others who read this way. Most people look down their noses at me when I say I go to the end first!
I can’t settle and enjoy a book unless I’ve read the end, who cares what other people think (I’ve had the odd comment) you paid for it, enjoy it ?
I don’t have the time to waste reading a book with what I consider to be a bad ending.
I used to do that. Mostly for authors whose books i haven’t read yet. And when I went to a bookstore. There aren’t many bookstores near me anymore, and those I’ve been to recently have really shrunk their non-fiction sections, especially romance. I find more new authors through Amazon suggestions.
I thought it was just me! Thank heavens other people also read the end first. Especially with mystery/crime books – my husband can’t understand it, he says it ruins the book knowing who the killer is straightaway, but I disagree, it enables me to pick up on little clues and enjoy the book more. My argument back is that if you enjoy a book you will re-read it, is it ruined because the second time of reading you know who did it? No it isn’t. A good book is based on more than the mystery of who the killer is.
You are in good company! Sure, reading the end of the book first may be rather unfashionable at the moment. But William Shakespeare certainly agreed with you. Look at the opening prologue of Romeo and Juliet, which gives the away the entire story, including the tragedy at the end:
Two households, both alike in dignity,
In fair Verona, where we lay our scene,
From ancient grudge break to new mutiny,
Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.
From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
A pair of star-cross’d lovers take their life;
Whose misadventured piteous overthrows
Do with their death bury their parents’ strife.
The fearful passage of their death-mark’d love,
And the continuance of their parents’ rage,
Which, but their children’s end, nought could remove,
Is now the two hours’ traffic of our stage;
The which if you with patient ears attend,
What here shall miss, our toil shall strive to mend.
Shakespeare wanted you to know the whole story before you started. The interesting part was apparently knowing how you got there. So your love of reading the end of the book first has ancient and honorable precedent.
(Also, love the new book! Can’t wait for the third in the trilogy!)
Wow, there are other people like me!
That is exactly why I read the ending first, especially with authors I have not read before.
Beautiful, concise breakdown. Thank you.
Your articles on writing are fabulous to read and very insightful.
Wow! You are so amazing at explaining things. This is so concise!
I will disagree with one thing though, you are getting better! Practice, practice, practice! ?
Jumping in late here, but the genie in the bottle isn’t a reference to the genie in Aladdin but to the “give you three wishes” genie in the stories where the main character finds a bottle on the beach, accidentally frees the genie inside, and is granted three wishes by the grateful genie. Usually those stories have the main character bumbling the wishes and ending up worse off or at least no better than when the story started. Aladdin as the master of the lamp could have any number of wishes granted, so long as he possessed the lamp. He also had a genie in a ring, if I remember correctly.
It gets confused because of Disney.
Agreed, the genie in the old brass lamp was Aladdin’s. The genie in the bottle belonged to King Solomon. After using the genie to build the First Temple in Jerusalem (the one destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 BC) and various other projects, King Solomon tricked the genie into a bottle which Solomon sealed with his own seal and threw into the depths of the ocean or the depths of the earth for extra safety. Ages later the bottle floated to shore/was caught in a fisherman’s net/was dug up, and the usual followed.
Thank you so much for the explanation. I always knew I liked a certain kind of story, but never understood the why? I so enjoy your books!! Please keep writing”
Love, love, love this article. It so clearly lays out the path series can take that sometimes we aren’t consciously aware of.
We do get invested and so want the payoff when we’ve been faithful and (sometimes) patient. I love the long journey when it’s done right as you have done and Nalini Singh has done, Jeneane Frost as well.
Episodic is fun and relaxing and like comng home to an old friend where you will always get what you have always got. Progressives are a Pandora’s box – and that’s half the fun!
Thanks for your stories – all of them.
I love Kate Daniels series because you started growing her straight from the first book. As soon as she met Derek she started growing and doing things that were in line with her heart and not her training. Every book was like catching up with friends. I particularly love those characters that are not always loveable like Saiman or Aunt B and even Hugh (love Hugh snippets btw). You are very good at what you do guys. Thanks for all the Magic!
I think jd robb in death series is a bit of a cross between episodic and progressive. Sometimes big changes in their lives sometime none. But we do get a lot of books so i love it. I dont want the end of kate to happen. Will be so sad
Very true on the JD Robb books. The change is there, but, boy, does it take a long time.
I also really agree with hating to see the KD(L?) series end. I will miss updates on my friends and frenemies in that universe so much.
Sometimes the villain’s point of view is more interesting than the hero’s. It even better to have both sometimes – IMHO anyway. I was thinking I would not like the “Hugh” story. but love the teasers…
The cliche of, “The genie can’t be put back in the bottle.” likely came from the “I Dream of Jeannie” TV series. Us Americans are lazy and latched on to that idea, as few of us have ever read “The Book of One Thousand and One Nights”.
Episodic book series that I read, I don’t care if I have all of them on my Kindle. They are like candy. You eat one piece, maybe a couple of pieces, then you go on, never having your hunger satisfied.
Progressive books, however, I MUST have them the first day of release, they must ALL be in my Kindle, and they are like having a feast when I start a re-read (and I re-read them over and over). Yes, those are like visiting with old friends. They are the real “food” in my reading library.
When an author ends an episodic series, it is like a co-worker got a different job and went away. Not really any impact on your daily life.
When an author ends a progressive series, it is like moving away because of work. Heart breaking, necessary, but devastating all the same. We become that invested in those characters.
My kids (now adult) are this way about David Eddings’ Belgariad; they say they know and like his characters better than members of their family. He’s their comfort author.
Thank you for this blog entry. When Bran dies, I was sad. I couldn’t believe he had died, but I liked what his death did to Kate, then you kept going and when B (in case someone hasn’t read it), I was devastated. I cried and cried. I have cried with each reference to the death. The only thing that keeps me sane when reading the series is remembering what you said in your blog several years ago. You told us to trust you. I took the leap of faith and keep reading, knowing up that you are writing a story that is going to eventually be completely satisfying. Do I have things I would like to See? Yes. But I am enjoying the journey that I can’t complain about some of the bumps in the road.
Yes!!!! I was positively dying during the last book. Every time Andrea was mentioned (her appetite etc) I’d start bawling thinking that B would never get to meet the little carnivore.
Love the explanation. I loved KD from book 1. I recommend just about anyone who asks to read it, even though they aren’t necessarily into Urban Fantasy. But I never knew I liked this genre until I read KD.
Aside from these two type of books, I actually really get annoyed with authors who essentially write the same books. I don’t read a lot do genres, but Romance novelists tend to fall into this trap. Love at first sight, everything is wonderfully, until some huge misunderstanding, gets resolved, happy ending. Worse if they write these same arcs in a series, then they essentially spend half the book catching you up with the rest of the gang, so you’re getting even less of the book.
But the most annoying of all, are those authors who intentionally chop one book into a few books, and pretend it’s a series.
This is a great explaination. Thank you!
To each his own. My favorite is still Magic Strikes and I almost dislike one of the later books. I agree though that the character development and fact that we get more and more invested in the characters as the series goes on can make later books seem better. Though, how many series have we given up because they lost their initial luster?
And she solves the current problem I’m having with a blog note…. one thing I love about your books (which is not the problem) is that it is fun to go back and read the whole series again before the new book. So, I am trying that with another series and… meh … I love the characters, the setting, the stories but I can NOT read more than a couple before I have to take a break. I was worrried about that last night as I closed book 5 and switched to something else. NOW I know why and feel better about it. But, I will now have to close the new book and pick up Burn for Me since I will need to have read it again before I get my chance to read White Hot. Thanks!
Wow, thank you so much for this explanation. I so love it when I learn something new in a day. This is like going to a whole class and yet getting all the essentials in just a few minutes. Your explanation is just as worthy as your fiction. You know, you would be some fantastic teachers if you chose to go in that direction. I’ve taught for years and am married to a teacher so my hat’s off to you.
While I love all the KD books (I got hooked on from the first) what truly resonated with me was the third one – I like episodic stories but I don’t wait for the releases or eagerly await the next one. I know what’s going to happen and when I’m in the mood for that kind of a story I’ll pick it up.
Reading each KD book took me to a lot of highs and lows (same as with LOTR, a lesser extent with HP) and it’s why I’m honestly a bit worried to pick up the GoT series. I know I’ll enjoy the writing and the pure evil genius but will I be able to overcome the trauma of reading so many live changing events? :O
And White Hot is currently #5 on the Amazon Kindle list!!!!!!!!
🙂 It’s 329 overall in Kindle sales. We’ll see what happens tomorrow.
ZOOOOOMMMMM!!! is what will happen. Safe journeys.
Do audible sales get factored in?
(I mean, not to Kindle rankings, but to any of the larger bestseller lists.
I beg to differ with the reader you quoted in this post….I’ve loved this series from the beginning… and would never admit to anyone (other than my daughter who also reads the series) that I’ve reread the series several (4 or 5) times, especially when I have been through a dry period and can’t seem to find anything worth reading….. You guys have done an excellent job with this series, with the Edge books and with the new series…. So, so nice to have something this wonderful to read. Also…. nice posting about episode books and progressive…. never even realized the difference but now it’s so clear…. Makes me feel so much smarter… 🙂 You and Patricia Briggs are my ‘go to’ authors when I need to read something really well done, with story development and characters I can connect with….it may not always be easy to write, but, thank you.
I think series do get better, but sadly, most reach that jump the shark moment, that moment when an author perhaps is tired of the series or has written herself into a corner and has to give characters almost godlike abilities to resolve conflicts. I think the problem is most authors really don’t envision series lastly as long as they can and don’t have theme, plot, and over-arcing plot points to move the story along. And when/if they do and those plot points are resolved, cobble together mediocre elements to continue a successful series, instead of typing The End.
Fred, I think your comments are spot on. I always visualise a successful author of a long running series turning in their latest manuscript and thinking ” now I’m finished perhaps I could go to the beach for a few weeks and veg out and drink some concoction with a little paper umbrella in it”. Then the phone rings and it’s his/ her publisher congratulating the author on the book being finished and ,by the way, when will you start on the next one. I suspect most publishers see most successful authors as cash cows.
That is one reason I admire our Authorlords. They have planned to finish the ” Roland” story arc at book ten and I believe they will do so. There will no doubt be other novels/ novellas/ short stories in the world of KD , some featuring Kate and Curran, some featuring others like Jim and Dali, Andrea and Raphael, Roman, Derek and Julie, or other characters we haven’t yet met. If we are really lucky they may even come up with a story arc over a trilogy that is set in the KD universe. I think the IA writing team is too smart to jump the shark by stretching the Roland story arc beyond its natural conclusion.
I never had it explained so well! I have always loved books that have walked the life of the character, and it’s fun to voraciously re-read them when the new book comes out. Thanks!
Thank you for sharing your wonderful gift and inviting us into your imagination. It is always an amazing ride.
Reading has been and always will be a therapeutic device for me. It has helped me survive my childhood, helped me thrive in my teens and helped me understand the world around me. I am now a somewhat less neurotic adult that can laugh at the absurd and enjoy my children. With the insight books have given me I’ve come to forgive events in my childhood and now have a better relationship with my past.
So a big thank you for writing such great stories that have helped me escape for a time!
My White Hot paperback arrived today!! So excited. I can’t read it today, too much to do but I’ve already warned my kids that as soon as reasonably possible Mommy is checking out and going on a book stay-cation.
Or maybe I’ll draw it out for a while… just to prolong the pleasure? The Tantra approach to book enjoyment … hmmm…. 🙂
I love love love how your characters progress. I really enjoy reading about them and never get annoyed at their mistakes because they always learn from them (I have no problems with characters not being perfect but it annoys me no end when they make a mistake and never learn from it). You guys are absolutely amazing!! Thank you so much for creating amazing and intelligent characters.
Anna
I’m looking forward to seeing you in Lansing Thursday. Have a sitter lined up and everything. It’s all I can do to wait. I’ve never gone to a public book signing so I’m trying to practice my “blasé face” so I don’t geek out when I meet you. Suspect I’m going to fail spectacularly.
Well I think you can have both in one – episodic series with character developement – just look at various tv series, I think the Star Trek illustrates my point best.
If you want a book example, I think that Nightside and Hawk&Fisher series from Simon R. Green is good one too. All those books can be read as standalones, yet their characters are changing as time comes.
Useless trivia response to your aside comment. It was a lamp in the tale of Aladdin but other Arabian tales used bottles or boxes . I read mostly Greek & Roman myths as a kid but if I remember my Arabian nights correctly the djinn or Ifrits were often imprisoned in bottles as punishment for some sort of mischief. I also vaguely remember something about the Seal of Solomon though that may have been demons (gogmahgog?).
Anyway general storyline went something like this. Hero finds bottle release djinn, djinn tells hero that its going to kill him for not releasing It sooner. Hero tricks djinn back into bottle by pretending not to believe it could fit (shades of marquis of carabas fairy tale) then refuses to release it until it promises to grant 3 wishes.
I’m not sure why I’m writing this as you had a djinn in Kate Daniels book 8 Magic shifts and I’m sure you did your usual thorough research.
Disclaimer: please be aware that my usually appalling spelling gets worse when faced with mythological and fairytale names.
Also being a total (ageing) nerd the first thing that came to mind with your description of episodic and progressing was the difference between Star Trek and Babylon 5. Thank you for giving me the words to finally explain why I much preferred the latter as apparently saying it has a plot line is not good enough (private argument).
Only a few more hours until “White Hot” will arrive in my Kindle account.
I have been excitedly anticipating the twists this magical story will have since October 2014, when I finished the delicious “Burn for Me”.
It will be like Christmas!
Only 4 more hours!
My hardbound copy of “White Hot” will arrive later.
Yes, TWO copies of the same delicious book written by my favorite authors.
It’s 12 noon on May 30th here in Australia and I’ve just finished read 1 of White Hot and it is terrific. Congratulations to the Ilona Andrews writing team. You deserve the success which I am confident is coming to a best seller list near you.
If it is possible, I enjoyed it even more than BFM . We see more of Rogan’s humanity (and thank you Gordon for the POV which opened that door a crack) , Nevada is even more appealing, her family is great and we have learnt more about their background and magic capabilities, the story is absorbing and a roller coaster of action but somehow manages to tie up enough plot points that the ending is satisfactory while somehow leaving the reader eager for book 3. Plus the romance is very satisfying (just ask Nevada). In all a terrific read.
Thank heavens we only have 8 weeks to wait for Wildfire. Plenty of time to read it again, then listen to Renee read it. By then my dead tree copy will have arrived which provides a reason to reread BFM and WH again just in time to start on Wildfire.
I think that it is a mistake to entirely discount the popularity of the later books as a product of character development and reader investment. That is certainly a factor, sure. But there are plenty of examples of progressive series where the earlier books are more popular than the later ones (Wheel of Time being a prominent example). There are forces that push later books to be better than the ones before them, but there are also forces that push them to be worse, and it takes a skilled author (or author team) to navigate the waters towards ‘better’.
Regarding genies and bottles. The original Aladdin story actually featured two genies. One in a lamp, and a lesser genie in a ring. There’s another story in which a sailor (Sinbad, I think, but it might have just been a random sailor) encounters a genie contained in a bottle on a beach, which then tries to eat him when he lets it out and has to be tricked back into the bottle. Not entirely unlike the djinn that Kate and Curran encountered in some ways. That’s the genie from which the idiom arises, I think. The lamp and ring genies were bound servents – they could be summoned and banished at will. The bottle genie was trapped and desiring freedom – and it required rebottling for the safety of the hero – a task that would have been impossible by brute force.
Began reading White Hot. Progression begins again.
Omg omg. I am reading the book at 10pm. I shouldn’t because I should be sleeping!!! I’m super excited so wanted to share. ?
1.5 hrs until I can download and start reading White Hot!!
Thank you for sharing this! I really enjoy how you explain things 🙂
I just finished “White Hot”, and it’s great. I laughed, I snarled, and I didn’t put it down until the end (well, ok, one brief break). Thank you.
You might want to have a word with Amazon, Ilona. The kindle version “from the back cover” description is about someone called Rob Bell’s analysis of the Bible. No doubt a worthy effort, but could lead to confusion!
Referring to White Hot, of course!
BTW – brilliant, devoured in one sitting (well, lying in bed) as soon as it downloaded at midnight. Paying for that now, of course, just hope no one wants coherent thought and answers from me today at work.
Thank you thank you thank you. The book is here. And only a few months to wait until the third book!
White Hot delivers! Thank you. I will not say anything else or I’ll have to redact it straight away. But I am looking forward to July!
Got my book. I’m gone for the day, so don’t bug me.
Okay, official release day. 2 quibbles – you once again used prone incorrectly, unless your definition means on one’s back, which would actually be supine, and shooting the illusion monster. Nevada puts ‘3 shots in the left side of his chest’ and then later Leon asks why she shot him in the back, not the head.
Let me fix this comment for you. “Dear Ilona, congratulations on your release day!”
I did like the book a lot, and want to know more about the girls and Leon’s magic.
Jim Butcher is another author that I favor that writes brilliant progressive stories. Harry Dresden is like a living and breathing human being he’s responded and changed so much over the course of the books.
I personally don’t see the point in reading the same story over and over with nothing ever having any lasting impact on the protagonists. I can read something like Robert Ludlum where the protagonist changes from book to book, with the same formula over and over but in a long series, I want the protagonists to evolve.
so I guess that explains why I’m a fan. 😉
And now I know why I drop a lot of series by the third or fourth book. Thanks for the explanation.
I always enjoy your blogs and learn from them, thanks for taking the time to write them.
I just down loaded my copy of White Hot. Now to try and sneak read it at work or wait until after I get home and walk the dog. Hmmm… does the dog really need to be walked;)
Hopefully, if work allows, I will be able to meet both of you Friday.
Thank you for that absolutely brilliant explanation of episodic vs. progressive series. I like investing in a well developed world with characters that grow and sometimes don’t grow and often experience emotional loss as well as joy and fulfillment. I have friends who have quit reading a series due to a favorite character being killed, but for me the danger of loss solidifies the world and brings the emotions and drives into crystal clear focus. I so appreciate the work you do, as so many have said, I re-read your books because it is a process of visiting old friends. I have said this before but I really do think one of your greatest gifts as writers is your ability to create such true families in your books. They are almost always wonderful mixes of biological family and family of choice…but there is no doubting the bonds. This is something I aspire to in my own writing because if I could, even just once, cause a reader to feel what I feel when I read your families…I would consider myself very, very blessed. Congrats on your release day…I hope you enjoy it to the fullest!!
I finished the book and it was wonderful. I stayed up way too late but what can you do?
Thank you for the explanations on character styles. I now understand why I don’t go back to some series. There seems to be no advancement or changes.
I never think of it that way! In Thailand, every books are progressive. Or rather, instead of calling them series, it would be more appropriate to call them story. Story can be long or short but you definitely can’t read them from the middle, the time skip between book is 0. There is always book numbers paste on the cover too.
Now that I think about it, it might be about eastern-western thing? Since from all the books I read, Thailand, China, Japan are the same about no time-skip between books. But all western books I read have them.
PS books with time-skip (I mean books that can be read from the middle and still understandable) here is called light novel, and it’s light. I don’t think I ever see big books style like this around here.
Huh. I don’t think of the Edge series as episodic, since the events in one book carry on ver to the next, but I like the explanation.
I do think the reason later books can be more enjoyable is because the characters and the worlds are established. By the third and fourth books, the waves and the political structures are set, and don’t require exposition- you can just watch the action unfold. And often, the writer has been developing her craft, as well. I think of Anne McCaffrey’s Dragonriders- Dragonflight is critical in terms of plot and character, but damn if it’s not clunky and stylized compared to the later books.
What I do find is that often I burn out on a series before the end- GOTR and Skokie Stackhouse come to mind. Not happening with KD, and I’m just rolling with it.
I have read a few “episodic” authors and I have to say, I’m firmly planted in the “progressive” camp. When someone suggests a new author or series to me, I don’t like to start reading it if there aren’t at least 4 books. (Hidden Legacy and Innkeeper are outside this rule because I already know I LOVE your books, so reading these two series were no brainers, even if there were only one of each book out when I started). I have to say that Kim Harrison’s Rachel Morgan series got me stuck on progressive series’ way back in the day, and has always been my favorite read until Kate came along and stole the show. Whenever my husband is deployed I will pull the books back out and visit with “my old friends”. It’s nothing for me to finish 13 books in a month when he’s gone, my record is 24 books. (And let me tell you, when you start a new series and it has 8 or 9 books it gets expensive! Haha) I don’t watch much tv, so I read in my spare time. And as I always tell my kids, reading is the best kind of adventure because you can go on it again and again, and you usually notice something that you didn’t pick up on the first time.
Also, on a random note, another thing I love about your books, they stick with you. There are times that I will hear a song on the radio and I immediately think of a situation in one of the Kate books (specifically the song “Say Something” by a great big world. Which makes me think of Magic Rises). And I always think “When they turn this series into a tv show/movie, this is totally the song they will play in the background of this scene. “500 Miles” cover by Sleeping at Last is when Curran finds her at Mishmar, and I could keep going on lol. Love all the books, and I can’t wait to read White Hot. I’m saving it until after the 8th because I’m having surgery, and that’s my present to myself since my husband is once again gone lol. I will eventually collect all ya’lls books in hard copy so I will have my own little Ilona Andrews library.
I love the progression. I have been Jonesing for White Hot since finishing Burn for Me and it was everything I had hoped. Bouncing in place for Wildfire and rubbing hands in glee that it’s July 25 release date. White Hit was slow but clearly worth the wait.
I really, really hate episodic series, and sometimes I start a series and don’t realize that’s what it is (although the number of volumes is usually an indicator). I loved this post.
That was so well explained!! I like both, well I like anything that is printed pretty much, but you are so right, when I read a lot of episodic books from the same author in a row – I go like here we go again, Nora Roberts is a good example, I enjoy her books as chick lit but most of the trilogies are just copy paste it feels, boy meets girl – move a head a tiny little bit in some 3 book arche of magic or mystery, happy ever after.
The crime parts are a bit more unique but only a bit… still love her books for relaxation. But I don’t get invested in the characters like with yours, or the Mercy Thomson books, or Brandon Sanderson’s books, or Robert Jordan.
Wow, this was a thoughtful, well-expressed post. Thank you for sharing it.