In any number of careers you would need to take training courses or maintain qualifications. As writers, have you done anything more formal, after university, to hone your talent or is there something you plan/want to do in the future? Anything you found really helpful? Aside from just putting in the hours and hours actually writing.
I didn’t go to college for writing. I went there to be a scientist and I dropped out after 2 years. Gordon went to college to get a history degree with a minor in political science. Neither of us recommends formal education for creative writing if your aim is to write commercial fiction. Most MFA programs are taught by people who have not achieved commercial success. In some cases, it can be detrimental rather than helpful.
Gordon actually started as an English major aiming at journalism. His English Literature professor assigned the class an essay on Green Knight after lecturing at length about it. Gordon analyzed the Green Knight and received a failing grade. Apparently, there was a misunderstanding. He was under impression that the professor wanted his thoughts on Green Knight. Instead she wanted her opinion regurgitated back at her in his words. Gordon switched his major that day and never looked back.
A bad teacher will kill your creative drive.
Things that one can do to improve their writing
Hours and hours writing and hours and hours reading.
Although I am mostly reading manhwa and manhua, Korean and Chinese comics. People ask for recommendations for those, but I typically don’t reccomend them because a lot of them they have themes that Western audiences would not tolerate well. Which is why I read them. You must read widely. Lots and lots of stimulus from reading, looking at art, watching TV, observing people in real life. Your mind will take all of it, chew on it for a while, process, and produce fiction. You can’t make fiction out of nothing.
Read widely. Read new. Read old.
For hours the hard-pressed beast had fled across the Martian desert with its dark rider. Now it was spent. It faltered and broke stride, and when the rider cursed and dug his heels into the scaly sides, the brute only turned its head and hissed at him. It stumbled on a few more paces into the lee of a sandhill, and there it stopped, crouching down in the dust.
The man dismounted. The creature’s eyes burned like green lamps in the light of the little moons, and he knew that it was no use trying to urge it on. He looked back the way he had come.
In the distance there were four black shadows grouped together in the barren emptiness. They were running fast. In a few minutes they would be upon him.
Brackett, Leigh. Eric John Stark: Outlaw of Mars (p. 9). Phoenix Pick. Kindle Edition.
IN THE MYRIADIC YEAR OF OUR LORD—the ten thousandth year of the King Undying, the kindly Prince of Death!—Gideon Nav packed her sword, her shoes, and her dirty magazines, and she escaped from the House of the Ninth.
She didn’t run. Gideon never ran unless she had to. In the absolute darkness before dawn she brushed her teeth without concern and splashed her face with water, and even went so far as to sweep the dust off the floor of her cell. She shook out her big black church robe and hung it from the hook. Having done this every day for over a decade, she no longer needed light to do it by. This late in the equinox no light would make it here for months, in any case; you could tell the season by how hard the heating vents were creaking. She dressed herself from head to toe in polymer and synthetic weave. She combed her hair. Then Gideon whistled through her teeth as she unlocked her security cuff, and arranged it and its stolen key considerately on her pillow, like a chocolate in a fancy hotel.
Muir, Tamsyn. Gideon the Ninth (The Locked Tomb Trilogy) (p. 15). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
Writer groups
Peer critique is useful if you can stand it. Some people can get vindictive and mean, because everyone is a special snowflake when it comes to their own writing. Also, you have to be aware that because everyone is working on their own fiction, they will concentrate very heavily on one aspect at a time. The adage of “if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail” holds true in this case.
For example, let’s say that I’ve become convinced that I use the word said too often. If I am critiquing other people’s work, I’m going to point out all of the saids with a vengeance, because I can’t unsee them. In reality, the word said is one of the most invisible words in English language. Go ahead and use it, because I guarantee that “he declared” will stand out a lot more.
Your best feedback comes from reader reactions. One well placed, “I am bored” can tell you more about your book’s issues than five pages of analysis from another writer.
For example, suppose you have a scene where your character has a verbal fight with his brother. The reader says, “This is boring.” The writer friend says, “This scene lags. I’d cut it.” But the problem isn’t actually in this scene. The problem is two chapters ago where you failed to set up the emotional conflict between the two brothers. If you have one brother kick the other brother’s dog in that chapter, I guarantee you nobody will be bored during their fight. Most of the times only you can figure out where the problem is because only you know what you want to say.
Books
My go-to recommendation is Techniques of the Selling Writer by Dwight V. Swain. It’s getting long in the tooth, but it’s still useful because it explains some of the fundamental techniques like how to fold time or how structure a chase scene.
I’ve read a few books on writing written by working authors, Like David Eddings, Steven King, Dean Koontz, etc. They were not helpful in terms of making me a better writer. They did demonstrate to me that writers like to talk about themselves and their creative process and that all of us feel sorry for ourselves. 🙂
If I ever wrote a book on writing, it would basically be an update of Swain, but we already have Swain, so I am going to send you to it. Just ignore some of the outdated social commentary. It was first written in early 70’s, I think, and the revised edition dates to 1981.
Formal courses
I’ve tried Patterson’s master class because I wanted to know about his process. I quit after 4th or 5th lesson because there simply wasn’t enough substance for me to sink my teeth in.
I haven’t tried anything else. In theory, the idea of continuing education for writers seems useful, but your best continuing education is to pick up something new and fresh, something odd, and read it.
Mentorship
Mentorship is having someone, preferably a successful writer, steer you through a draft of your first book. There is a lot of potential benefits here, but also some danger. Successful writers tend to be forceful in their approach to fiction, For example, I have to be very vigilant to not bulldoze over someone when I critique. I have done it a number of times and then went back, looked at it, and thought, “Why did I do this?” That’s why I do my best to not critique anymore.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I recently started writing for fun (with maybe hopes of being a published author in the future). The thing is, I was spending so much time researching how to write in workshops, videos and books that I wasn’t actually doing any writing. Or when I did, I was constantly second guessing my writing to see if I was following this rule or that structure etc etc. I’m sure there’s is actually a lot I could learn on proper writing processes, but at this point in my journey I just need to put words on a page I think haha.
The one thing that has truly helped is what you mentioned– reading. I spent so much time reading during this whole pandemic era that I had way too many ideas to not try writing. Manhwas and manhuas are a favorite, their themes can be so out there, its hard not to come up with ideas while reading them all the time.
I’m not shy to give people a recommendation if you’re interested in trying manhwa, shameless plug for my absolute favorite korean webtoon called Kubera. It’s genre covers a wide range, fantasy/romance/comedy/tragedy with a strong focus on character introspection/growth and questions on morality. I absolutely love it 🙂
And if you need extra reasons to try Kubera than my poorly worded recommendation… 😉
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kubera/comments/ngx4f9/what_makes_kubera_great/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
Hi! This is just a general fan squee. I finally started reading your books (Innkeeper came first) and I’m devouring them all right now. Bless the CW Mars ebook library system. Thanks for your work!
—– Lots and lots of stimulus from … observing people in real life. Your mind will take all of it, chew on it for a while, process, and produce fiction. You can’t make fiction out of nothing.
I used to run around with a bunch of actors and I remember with crystal clarity the moment when we were out having a beer and I realized that you should NOT hang out with actors if you don’t want to see pieces of yourself on stage some day.
I loved you used an excerpt from a Leigh bracket story, she was an amazing writer ( if it wasn’t for her the Empire Strikes Back may have looked like the Phantom Menace) and a pioneer.
In terms of authors writing about writing, my favorite was ‘ The Magic Sometimes Works’ by Terry Brooks. It had a lot of humor in it, he writes about the good,the bad and the ugly, but it is really more a book of encouragement than a how to.
Did you ever read any of the Holly Lisle texts on writing? I loved her fantasy.
Thank you, Ilona Andrews, for the post.
When I was 7 my family moved to a rural farming area from an urban area near a major university. Dad limited our weekly TV hours to 10 hours so we had to learn how to negotiate etc. as the only ones of our race on school bus, I can tell you racism was very much alive. Fantastic teacher of situational awareness at all times. My point is my siblings and I were encouraged to make up stories and tell them to each other. We did. None of us are professional writers and are prolific readers. we had a rather eclectic education in addition to basic stuff. At the time, we thought was normal. Now I do continuing education classes at county community college to learn new stuff. Well it’s free and not long term. Sometimes interesting, sometimes boring.
Ilona and Gordon,
This was fantastic. Thank you for putting the time in to explain and educate.
Wishing you all the best, and Excellent health.
I love love love Leigh Brackett and the John Eric Stark stories, the N’Chaka thing with his terrible claws.
Opps, just pulled the book; it’s Eric John Stark, I always wanted a North Hound, but I have poodles.
This was such a good post. Although I’m not a writer, I really enjoyed it- thank you. (Also- new book recommendations, woohoo!)
Totally agree! Best ever. Gideon the Ninth is coming home with me tonight. This conversation thread was so interesting and informative.
This was very interesting to read. I also enjoyed all of the comments as well. As a college history instructor (community college) I would love to see some original ideas in a paper or hear them in a class discussion. The vast majority of my students do not read anywhere near grade level. They do not read the news or watch it either. Snapchat and Twitter are there information sources. Sigh!! Their writing reflects that. However, you only get better at writing with practice so I keep reading bad essays and making lots of comments. It is encouraging when I see some of my students improve with each paper they write. I am a firm believer that being able to write well is the one of the most important skills teenagers need to develop. That and empathy for others.
Thanks for the insight and recs! I’m going to give Swain’s book a read.
I do not know how Elementary and Secondary education is accomplished outside of the USA. Inside the USA we recognize the importance of teachers, but the how to reward them is the problem. First – Public Schools are probably the greatest tax users. Tax Payers complain about the cost and vote for the people who will keep the cost down. Second – What is the fairest way to reward good teachers who are working in a political system where tenure is the legally acceptable way to compensate public employees? Third – How can we measure in real time, the budget year, the effectiveness of a teacher?
Politicians say a standard test is the best way. Teachers must teach to satisfy that test. A computer grades the test.
I am almost 74 years old and have no plans to write anything except for emails to my friends. Still, I found what you shared fascinating. I get what you are saying loud and clear. Maybe in my next life…
I completely agree with your sentiments on university writing. I took a class a few years ago where the professor required us to copy her first paragraph word for word and then add 1-2 sentences of our own thoughts on each weekly writeup. The problem I had with this is that the first paragraph did not really allow the last 1-2 sentences to provide any real thought or analysis about the subject. I lost points for not copying the paragraph on the first writeup and then later for adding additional sentences to complete a thought. It was the worst class, but her photography business was strongly marketed, so I guess that was a plus.
My college was the US Naval Academy, where everyone was required to take math, science & basic engineering classes in addition to his major. This led to 1 of my go-to quips: I love math because there’s always a right answer, but I majored in English because my answer was always right.
I have to go Google the Green Knight now ????
That was mean, I have now purchased Gideon the Ninth. I don’t need a new book to read. I just started both Cicely Tyson and a The Empirium Trilogy by Claire Legrand. I also have 10 new books to read. These are the kind of problems I enjoy. So much to read, so little time. LOL
“He was under impression that the professor wanted his thoughts on Green Knight. Instead she wanted her opinion regurgitated back at her in his words.”
LOL, that’s school in general to me. Nobody actually wants YOUR opinion on anything! When people repeatedly ask for mine, I don’t give it! Whatever you want, dear 😛
Oh that advice on instructors with MFAs is dead on accurate. Summer 2018, I signed my 14 year up for a teen creative writing summer camp offered by the local major university. It was advertised for those who were comfortable writing and a way to meet, share, and get writing tips. Turned out to be something much different.
Before the first session, the instructor asked for something turned in that the teen wrote. My very insecure daughter turned in a chapter of something she started working on a few months back.
The feedback was fairly immediate that her main character should be likeable, instead of so unpleasant…. and there shouldn’t be as much, if any, swearing. (My spouse is retired military and I’m a vet, so its not prudish in her household)
Throughout the camp, this teacher tried to get my teen to alter her writing style instead of focusing on helping her to improve technique. She’s still salty about the experience. When we discovered that she was an MFA, my spouse went on a tangent about the degree type and how snobbish they can be.
My teen writes because she must. Always has. When she gathers up her courage to hand me something to read, it surprises me how really good she is at it…. world building, character realization and plotlines. The last time she did was about 2 years ago. She doesn’t need any older adult with an MFA telling her how wrong she is at it, when it’s all subjective.
“A bad teacher will kill your creative drive.” So true!
Hear, hear, Ilona! I took the required English Lit. courses in college because I was a Fashion design Major and they had to fill in those and Pennsylvania history classes somehow, so they made them mandatory. I had an English Lit. instructor who, when I made a comparison between someone she mentioned and H.G.Wells.
asked, “Who is this H.G.Wells?”
I visited the dean of women after class and explained that these classes (at Drexel University) cost a lot of money and the least we should expect was a level commensurate with our high school teachers which were far above this woman.
Needless to say, she was gone at the end of the term.
Had I known then what I know now, I would have learned more and spent much less, if I had apprenticed for free to an established Philadelphia designer.
There are many things in the science and engineering world that college can provide, but you need to start at the end game and think backward to see what education you need to get there. Degrees do no equate to Knowledge and know-how.
People often ask me what I learned in college. What was the most important thing I learned there as I obtained my degree? My answer is always the same. “It’s not all in the books!” I learned to observe people and figure out what they wanted from me to get them to listen to my ideas. That’s not in the books, but it’s in life in general, and it did me good to learn it. Some things in the books were important to know, but the most important things I learned were not. Fortunately, I survived and am done working now.
Eh I keep it simple. If the real world doesn’t exist then it’s good writing.
As the end users we have it easy, if you enjoy it then it has to be ‘good’ at some level.
Your bulldog story reminded me of a James Herriott story where a dog coming out of anaesthetic howled for hours and paced around the house. Funny in the telling but probably horrendous in the experience.
So much to love in this post and the various replies. I agree that poor teaching can put the kibosh on anyone’s wish to learn anything. Unfortunately I think being taught badly is a universal experience.
The only way to learn to write is to write and to read, but I have found some of Holly Lisle’s courses helpful. However, I have just tried reading a murder story which purported to be a sort of synthesis of PG Wodehouse and Agatha Christie. It was written by someone who had picked up a smattering of the social manners of the period, but had no real understanding and hadn’t done any proper research. Doilies on a silver salver in a gentlemen’s club, forsooth! That alone jerked me right out of the world. I wrote a scathing review in which I compared it to trying to listen to Mozart, with an accompaniment of someone scraping their nails down a blackboard, and then deleted it. I had vented my spleen and saw no need to hurt the author’s feelings, or receive a dump truck of hatred from fans. The point of this is that just reading the literature won’t tell you everything you need to know about the world you are writing about, it’s fatally easy to get things horribly wrong and the devil is definitely in the detail.
If you write, you do need to make the effort to learn to write correctly and check what you use. My pet aversions, people who use wrack (seaweed) when they mean rack (a nasty mediaeval instrument of torture that ripped joints apart and crippled them, metaphorically used of guilt and brains). Another one that seems to be cropping up increasingly in sex scenes is divot, used to mean a dip. A divot is a chunk of turf churned up by horses’ hooves or a golf club, poorly applied. I leave the image that imprints on my brain when applied to skin, to your imaginations, but it is a mood killer. I am 850,000 words into a five volume swords and sorcery epic. I haven’t tried publication yet, as the day job limits my time for writing, and I would hate to publish volumes 1-3 and be prevented from finishing, so readers never found out what happens in the end…though I hear a deadline is a great stimulus for writers.
This has to be one of my favorite blog post/threads ever. 1000% agree that the way to become a writer is to write and read. I have read so many famous writers who have said the same thing. 1000% agree that bad grammar is the worm in the big bright shiny apple that is self publishing. I admire those dedicated readers who can stick with a story that has glaring mistakes for the sake of the story, I can’t. Shook my head over the commenter who thought nonnative speakers made more mistakes. Besides the strangeness of such a comment on your blog, I personally see far more mistakes from writers of all types who came up the line in our “native” educational systems. Admire the heck out of the dedicated teachers who chimed in, wish that they were given more effective tools and support. Ah, this is such a fun place to spend a little bit of my Sunday morning.
Thank you for all of the worlds you two have given us. I love them all and anxiously (yet patiently!!! ) await each new entry you gift us with.
Thank you for all of the happy thoughts.
I wanted to be an author. I was sure I would be a great one because I read ALL THE TIME! I then became a good friend with Charlaine Harris and I was able to observe the process of a great fiction writer who loved her craft. I realized I would never be an author because I am not driven to write. Through Charlaine I came to know many excellent authors and they are all filled with words they HAVE to commit to paper (or the equivalent!). I realized I simply don’t have that driven need.
I’m an artist, not a writer, but I love reading your behind the scenes look at writing and storytelling. It helps me appreciate even more the books that I love to read. Yours are at the top of my list!
Once again late to the discussion. Jennifer Cruise taught in college and is a best selling author. She has through the years given many short writing guidelines, and if you have problems how to analyze what went wrong and how to fix. She writes and speaks with humor including of her college years. There is a wealth of information in her archived blogs including writing collaboratively.
The only time over use of ‘said’ is a problem is in the audio books. Otherwise you’re right, its invisible.
I think you could write a grocery list and I’d read it