Hi! I don’t know if you already know this and you did it on purpose or something, but I’m from Israel and I speak Hebrew as my first language, and I wanted to let you know that in Hebrew komer/kmarim is specifically only a priest of the christian church, and a priest for every other religion is cohen (male), cohenet (female) and cohanim (plural). If you already know this and did it on purpose it’s fine, but it kind of bothered me because it’s really inaccurate… thank you so much for everything, your writing is really helping me through this tough times!
Lail
Having consulted a rabbi, it is actually accurate. Komer/kmarim, or komrim if you are influenced by Aramaic, originates as a word meaning priest of non-Jewish faith. Here are some sources to back it up.
From what we have seen so far, kohen can refer to any sort of priest (whether in service of the One G-d or not), while komer refers specifically to idolatrous priests. (Interestingly, a letter from the Elephantine Papyri distinguishes between Jewish priests who are called kohanim, and Egyptian priests who are called komrim.)
https://ohr.edu/8659
Indeed, the word komer also appears in the Bible and suggests this very meaning: the Bible reports that when King Josiah cleaned up his predecessor’s idolatry, he “fired” all the komrim from their idolatrous positions, helped them repent and decreed that all the kohanim (i.e. descendants of Aharon) who had been previously been komrim for idolatry were banned from serving in the Temple in Jerusalem (II Kgs. 23:5-9, with Radak).
This word predates Christianity.
Yosef implemented a flat tax on the Egyptians and exempted the Komrim – the Priests. The reason for this exemption was because when Yosef’s master’s wife accused him of molesting her, the Komrim investigated and concluded that Yosef was clear of any wrongdoing. Thus they spared Yosef from death. Yosef never forgot their impartiality and honesty, and many years later, he repaid them by exempting them from tax.
http://www.jhconnection.com/book_archives/jhcsitedoc_196.htm
However, in modern times, where priests of other religions have become a bit more scarce, it has gained association with Christianity. Komrim/kmarim came to signify Christian priests and galokhim became associated with monks of eastern religions, although Yiddish dictionary translates both as non-Jewish priest.*
*Gentile New York by Gil Ribak
This is one of those cases where we are right, but it’s not worth it to explain it to every single well-meaning person trying to correct it. We would be swimming against the current of the modern usage. I foresee a flood of emails over komrim/kmarim spelling and another advising us that these are Christian priests.
It’s like trying to tell a Russian that bogatyr is not a Russian word. It’s not. It comes from Mongolian baghatur meaning “hero.” Thanks, Genghis Khan. The outrage will flow and no amount of historical Google linking to Mongolian sources will convince them otherwise.
We will likely switch to a made up word. It’s easier that way. Making stuff up is always easier than researching it, and while this was a very fitting nod to the historical roots and conflict of Judaism with Moloch worship, it will have to go.
UPDATE: Do not be mean to Hebrew speakers! They are trying to help and save us from embarrassment later. Their help is very much appreciated.
I love etymology!!
I have a sudden craving for chocolate.
Sad that I can’t get one right now.
It’s bohater in Polish. Thanks for the info, it was interesting.
There’s a Phoenician-Punic dictionary by Charles R. Krahmalkov. Maybe that could be of help if you can get hold of it. Example:
https://pl.b-ok2.org/book/2613532/a826c8
BWhahahaha snort ….. Priesty McPriestface lead …0_o…. lead *ahem* of Mark Moloch and the funky bunch….
Hay, hay were the Moloch’s
People say we bollocks around,
But we’re to busy sacrificing
to sing and dance around…..
enter Kermit singing (don’t try to understand my brain)
Someday we’ll find it
the bla bla bla bla,
the eye, the power and me!
What are the chances of getting a shirtless billboard of Moloch shirtless in low hung pants in downtown Atlanta?
I can’t quite visualize this. Do you make videos? How does the time for the song go?
Klingon…Discuss.
A huge thanks to you for all the research you do for your stories. That point is only one of the reasons (aside from the WOW storyarc!)that keeps me hooked. And, thank you for the information.
-JuNoCe
You could always keep the word and claim that it’s Reformed Egyptian.
Who can honestly say that that’s not the accurate translation then?
The Ammonites lived in Jordan (around the capital, actually, which is named after them) why would they use a word from people two deserts away? And from a completely different time period? They are mentioned in the bible when the king of Assyria warred w/ the kingdom of Israel. That was around ~700 b.c. they were closer to Cleopatra’s time then to the ancient Egyptians.
So I don’t usually post as the comments I have largely mirror everyone else’s……
(thanks for being so generous with your time and snippets….can’t wait for the
next instalment…..you two are my favourite re-read authors……OMG can’t wait
to find out how Derrick became an alpha….)
but reading this today has engaged my interest, educated my mind and tickled my funny bone.
So thank you Ilona and Gordon – how you do like to put the cat amongst the pigeons
and thank you to everyone who has contributed – you are all entertaining and inspiring (I now have some research of my own to do).
Stay safe everyone…..and as I say to my children “WASH YOUR DAMN HANDS!!!!”
I appreciate the opportunity to learn something new, especially how the meaning of the word has changed through time and circumstance. So, I am glad that the Israeli fan sent you the heads up. But, of course, I’m a weirdo with a strong interest in linguistics. This being said, you’re probably right to make up a different word to avoid controversy
My appreciation of House Andrews never ends. The thoughtfulness, creativity, patience and hard work are always visable. I am not surprised by the hiden meanings or thoughtfullness put into the choices of names of characters or places or just things. I love it and get to learn more about those things.
Thank you!
How about shaktim? Similar to the Hebrew word “Lishchot” which means to slaughter. Or the sorfim? Those who burn.
There is a word shochet, ritual slaughterer, which is a perfectly respectable profession, already. Also, your second suggestion shares a common root word with seraph, and I don’t know if they want to have any angelic connotation here. If they don’t care at all about good connotations, they could just go with cohen and cohanim, after all, there are many places those words are used for priests of other religions too. For example, Jethro is referred to as the Cohen of Midian.
But otherwise, I like the ideas!
Where’s shaktim from?
Google suggests trying Shakti or Shaktism and that relates to a completely different religion.
Just call them priests? I feel like we learned something, and going back and removing the usage would be a waste.
It would make sense if you worked it into the explanation Luther’s gonna get about the monsters pillaging his city.
It’s like when you talk about dieties from different mythologies. I think the first instance was when Julie’s mom went missing and they were talking about the goddess. Or how you introduce villains through conversations with Roland.
I guess it’s different when the religion in question is still alive.
Just as an fyi there is no absolute standard for transliterating Hebrew or Aramaic into Latin script except IPA. This is a standard complication for abjad type scripts where the actual script consists of consonants only and vowels are indicated by additional dots and dashes called pointing. So tbh I really wouldn’t worry about how you spell some words in Latin script – even my online Jewish studies groups which counts Rabbis and numerous well educated lay people among its membership has had some very vigorous debates on this issue.
Just keep on writing and thank you so much for Ryder which has been something to brighten lockdown and I look forward to Emerald Blaze coming out.
Consulting a rabbi doesn’t ensure the correct result. Speaking to someone who has lived in Israel is probably the better route. A rabbi can be from any country, a rabbi in the United States speaks English as their primary language. Hebrew speakers come from Israel.
If you have a question about Judaism a rabbi is an excellent source for information. Depending on the question you might want an orthodox rabbi, conservative rabbi or reform. In some cases you might even want to talk to a Hasidic Rav.
Questions about Hebrew and Hebrew usage as it is spoken are better directed to people who have either lived in Israel or grown up there. If you have access to an Israeli rabbi that person would potentially be able to cover both areas.
I’m going to move into less comfortable ground now. I want to question how this blog entry is presented. The title of it shows your understandable exasperation with the topic and you share the name of the person who wrote the letter. Then you go into a discussion about it citing a rabbi as your language source. This is a misunderstanding on your part, the underlying idea being that a rabbi would know about all things Hebrew or Jewish, conflating the two.
This is not an uncommon mistake and I don’t believe anyone is faulting you for it. Nor should anyone be upset when there is a purported error in language usage.
The reason for my discomfort resides in sharing the person’s name and then warning people not to be mean to the Hebrew speakers. That gives it away. When the title includes OMG and shows your irritation, your loyal fanbase is absolutely going to be “mean” to those whom they perceive have caused the problem.
The person who wrote the letter is more correct than otherwise. They weren’t attacking you, they were asking a question and they were right to do so. No one would be mean about it unless they were prompted to by feeling defensive on your behalf. It is reasonable to assume that devoted fans will feel that way after reading the post, the title of it, and absorbing the tone.
This isn’t an attack, it’s an explanation. I hope it is taken as such.
However, an Orthodox rabbi who studies the Bible and Talmud in the original Hebrew and Aramaic ( and who generally has for many years) is likely to be a good source on the historical usage, even if not the modern day’s, which is, I believe, what they wanted here originally.
“This isn’t an attack, it’s an explanation. I hope it is taken as such.”
And my title wasn’t a call to anti-Hebrew crusade, it was a tongue and cheek reflection on faults of research.
Your displeasure with my use of Hebrew and the way I ran our blog has been noted. 🙂
I think you’re misunderstanding me. I love your books, I have purchased them all. I don’t read the blog as often as other people but I stop by sometimes.
I lived in Israel for 12 years. Being Jewish and experiencing the world through that lens has left me with a sensitivity to issues like this.
I felt somewhat protective towards the person who wrote the letter because I could see the very devoted fanbase reacting to the tone of the blog entry. And in fact that has happened. I’m glad that it hasn’t happened a lot or where it has you’ve removed it.
So I am going to put the smiley face here, so you know that actually I am not at all irritated. 🙂 It’s not meant ironically. I am not upset.
Let’s look at the facts:
I used the word komir, which used to mean a priest who is not of Judaism.
You informed me that you were upset by it and that research isn’t a substitute for speaking to a Hebrew speaker.
I left you a comment listing the credentials of the rabbi whose article I used in my research. He was educated in Emek Hebrew Academy, Yeshiva Gedolah of Los Angeles, and Mir Yeshiva in Jerusalem. He’s written a book on Hebrew language, published papers in Hakirah (Flatbush), Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society (New York), Jewish Bible Quarterly (Jerusalem) and articles in Ohrnet, Jewish Press, Jewish Tribune, and on the Times of Israel.
You, for some reason, assumed that the original article was written by a non-Hebrew speaking rabbi, even though I linked the expert’s bio to you in the comment. And then you assumed that the rabbi I consulted directly also didn’t speak Hebrew. 🙂
You perceived the post discussing the usage of komir as inciting my readers to bully the Hebrew speakers. As evidence of this, you pointed out that I included OMG in the subject line and you brought up the fact that the person’s first name was listed, which is an established practice on this blog. You decided that I was being defensive and then informed me that your comment wasn’t an attack, but an explanation.
You made no effort to join the discussion of other Hebrew speakers in the comments. You simply informed me that again, you didn’t like it. I acknowledged it.
Being a native speaker doesn’t make you an expert in historical word usage. That’s why Rabbi Klein acquired all of that education on top of simply speaking Hebrew. When you are reading an article, it always helps to check out the bio of the writer. They typically list their credentials. 🙂
It has never been the policy of this blog to allow people to gang pile on someone. If you are worried about the person who sent the email, you can reply to her in the comments of this blog. She has posted repeatedly.
We all bring our own experiences to everything we read. It’s possible that your experiences might make you a little sensitive about anything that involves Hebrew language and culture. I understand this, which is why I left your comments up. 🙂 Sometimes we read more into something that was intended.
Added since I was interrupted: There is probably nothing I can say here that will change your perception of the conversation. So I am going to close the comments on this post. :
I don’t see what the problem is. Usage of a word in modern revived Hebrew need not be the same as its usage millennia ago, even with a very conservative religious text tradition. Indeed, it probably would not be; usage of many words has changed just since the founding of the US, a mere 230+years.