I hate to be a pedantic bore (no, actually I love it) but it is theoretically possible to set up life based on carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, but where liquid methane substitutes for water.
M in the comments
M’s survival instincts are misfiring.
Let’s be pedantic. We haven’t told you anything except that there is methane and electrified sand, and the carbon-based life is not welcome. M has no idea if there is silicon based life thriving on this planet or if a planet-wide energy based sapient bioweb encircles it, projecting its consciousness into space, or what have you, because we haven’t told you anything about it. Yet M took the time to correct us and he relished it. He really loves being a pedant.
I was going to let all those comments quietly disappear, but this one got me, because I can’t let this misunderstanding of chemistry go. I am going to assume that M is basing that weirdo statement above on Titan of our lovely solar system, which has methane and nitrogen atmosphere and liquid methane seas.
For life as we know it to exist even in its most primitive form, there must be a membrane, a boundary that defines the inner space of the organism and separates it from the environment. Here it is, courtesy of Encyclopedia Britannica.
The cell membrane has two functions: to protect things inside and to allow nutrients to enter and waste products to exit. Our membranes are made mostly of phospholipids and sterols (mostly cholesterol.)
Do you see that O in the formula? That’s oxygen. The P stand for phosphorus, also a very helpful element. The lipid molecules are polarized, which is what makes them “stick” together.
What does that mean? Imagine a sewing pin.
This is our phospholipid molecule. We’ve discussed before that water is sticky because its molecule is polarized. The head of the our “pin” is also sticky. It’s polar and likes water. The long end (there are 2 of them per each head) is hydrophobic and doesn’t like water.
If you drop oil into water, it will quickly form a round drop. These guys function the same way. You drop them in water and they right away will arrange themselves into a sphere with the heads pointing toward water and tails pointing inside our little ball. And because we still have water inside the ball, they make a second layer that’s a mirror of the first one. This forms a barrier that’s surprisingly resilient and flexible.
M, for the record, the planet is not Titan, but if it were Titan with its liquid methane seas, we would still need this lipid membrane. However, there is a big problem with that.
Phosphorus and oxygen, found in Earth cell membranes, don’t exist in Titan’s frigid methane oceans, so any cell-like membranes would have to be based on nitrogen, hydrogen and carbon, all of which are abundant on Titan.
NASA
NASA stipulated that life on Titan, if it were to exist, is methane-based and oxygen-free. It would be based on nitrogen, hydrogen, and carbon, because there is no oxygen or phosphorus in Titan’s methane seas. There might be water under the liquid methane, but that’s a whole different story.
So, no, you can’t “set up life based on carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, but where liquid methane substitutes for water.” Because there is no phosphorus or oxygen, you can’t have a lipid membrane.
But what if there is magic oxygen that we miraculously pulled out of our butt and stuck into other elements available on Titan?
Okay, if you have carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, and you wanted to make a lipid molecule, you could make a fatty acid. It’s nonpolar, so it won’t work. You could make cholesterol, which is again largely nonpolar. (No, we are not going to be discussing hydroxyl groups. We are keeping it simple.) You need phosphorus-oxygen combo for that polarity.
Even if you somehow – and I don’t know how – made a magically polar lipid molecule out of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, it still wouldn’t work. Why? Because methane liquefies at -260°F. The surface of Titan is a brisk -292 degrees Fahrenheit.
However, the phospholipid membranes, which are so strong and elastic in water, do not perform as well in liquid methane. The nonpolar tails of phospholipids would seem to be compatible with nonpolar liquid methane, and the polar heads with each other; does this suggest that an inverse membrane to those formed in water could exist in methane? Unfortunately not; this phospholipid hypothesis neglects the fact that the tails of phospholipids are long-chain hydrocarbons, which will be rigid at cryogenic temperatures. Furthermore, the phospholipid head component atoms, oxygen and phosphorus, are not available in any form in the methane seas of Titan and presumably not in any similar liquid methane environment. Inverted-phase liposomes are therefore not a viable option. The idea of using polarity to prevent dissolution, however, is valid if any suitable materials exist.
Membrane alternatives in worlds without oxygen: Creation of an azotosome
Translation: it is too cold. The membrane has to be flexible and at this temperature our poor lipids float there, stiff as a nail, and refuse to stick together. So our trio of C, H, and O is right out.
We have to search for alternatives to lipids. You can theoretically set up a life-enabling membrane based on vinyl cyanide, which looks like this.
It is theorized that vinyl cyanide could form a spherical membrane in a methane sea. We don’t know if it happens. We only know that it could happen.
Now then, we posted a teaser for Innkeeper, and ModR had to trash 10 comments. We haven’t even started. There is literally no fiction up. I am sure that M was excited to share his understanding of methane-based life, but by comment #10, I am done.
Our blog policy is that any person who offers corrections without listing their credentials will have said corrections removed without explanation. If you are correcting something we wrote about Houston, you should live there. If you are correcting something a Mancunian says, you better be one. If you are not an expert, please cite your references. Otherwise, you are spreading misinformation, which we have to refute or which will create a long comment thread and lead to fights. If you see something in error of fact (not a typo) in the narrative, please email us using the contact form.
Most of BDH really enjoyed the teaser, so this bottom part is addressed to those who, like M, relish being pedantic and decided to nitpick 3 sentences (WTF) in the previous post. You have to decide if you are going to be “helpful” or if you want to read Innkeeper in a serial form. No person alive can write in a toxic atmosphere – and it’s not methane this time – that so many “helpful corrections” create. Especially since half of the time, as M’s comment above demonstrates, they are in error.
Gordon has not seen this post yet, because his fuse is short when it comes to Innkeeper corrections. He is not a fan of serialization, because some people tend to get obsessive and abusive. I hope that by the end of August we will all be on the same page regarding Innkeeper’s availability.
Please do not trash each other in the comments. I have an ER scene to write in Ruby Fever because important people are very hurt, and I have told Mod R to exercise extreme prejudice. 😀
Love the Mod R portrait. I suspect it looks just like her.
I didn’t have the energy for anything yesterday as getting my office laptop to work seemed to be a never-ending exercise in futility, but today I can gleefully say:
Inkeeper sneak-peek!!! Squeeeeeeeeee
Love! It!
Cool photo, the lady looks like a perfect badass.
Mod R vs BDH!!!
A thankless job against an undying foe!
I want the book!
Mod R is of the BDH! The real foe is the nitpicking within ????
Holy smokes! My mind is blown.
And I thought my love of you couldn’t grow bigger. Bam! It just did.
Was finding the science interesting but truthfully my head started to hurt???? and once I saw your phrase “But what if there is magic oxygen that we miraculously pulled out of our butt and stuck into other elements available on Titan?” My brain went to wow there farts are oxygenating this world ???? I highly amused my self hoping it brings a bit of humour to your world, my thoughts are it’s your world do what you want I love your work you guys rock. One of the reasons I read is to escape and you have provided excellent material for me to do that, THANK YOU
That had me thinking about something I saw on the weather channel about climate change also being affected by cow farts. A thing that does come to mind is how wonderful things can come from our imagination or enjoying the products of another’s imagination. If an Inn can be produced from a seed, bond with an Innkeeper and do amazing things, having a planet exhibiting different abilities or reactions seems very plausible especially when well written which has been my experience with every series by Ilona and Gordon.
The Innkeeper’s series vaguely reminds me of one of Anne McCaffrey’s series that has sentient ships and Robin D. Owens that have sentient houses with animals that can communicate with people… now I am thinking about sentient plants along with planets able to do different things… imagine that!
wow, sorry! Nice explanation of membranes! Much more understandable than my last two text books, heh. I’m glad I totally missed the pedantic and/or negative ones.
Serialization, yea! Negative comments, boo! I actually didn’t think you guys were ever thinking about another serialization. So I’m pretty excited that it might be a possibility.
Love Mod R! Glad she’s not coming by for a visit!
I love Mod R’s portrait.
I know it is impossible, but please ignore M and others like that. I love your writing and the amount of research you put into each detail.
I enjoy the books you write for the adventure. I marvel at the word craft that takes me wherever you want me to go. I never once pick apart whatever you’re writing. I just enjoy it like a fine wine or beautifully cooked meal.
Re ModR portrait….. LOL!
Good one!
Yeesh M-type people, why you ruin for the rest of us?
Also, I’m sucked into Solo Leveling, so thanks for that.
Hello Ilona and Andrew,
Your explanations in this post are exceptional. I had difficulty in chemestry, but you make it sound AWSOME!!! I wish you had been my teacher way back when.
If you wish to do first hand reaserch on Navada’s ancestry (Grandma Frida’s deceased husband home “town”), please come and visit! We would be sooooo happy to see you. By the way, my parents and I still say “Mook” “Mook” and “cookie”. 😉
Mod R,
You are ROCKING that outfit!
Is Mercury in Retrograde? Seems like all the difficult people are ardently trying to out-difficult each other.
Why is it with Science Fiction, people are all about the science and forget that it’s also fiction?
Hope it all settles down soon. Enjoy glass of mead. Polish your armor. And have a relaxing weekend! You deserve it!
Loved the snippet. I love the anticipation of discovering who “he” is. Your discussion brings back lovely memories of the original Star Trek and how the Enterprise found a silicon-based lifeform called the Horta on a planet the Federation was mining. The miners were destroying Horta eggs– not knowing what they were– and the Horta were killing the miners for doing so. Luckily Spock mind-melded with one and the misunderstandings were cleared up. LOVE fiction. ANYTHING is possible.
One of my Fav episodes!
I am truly thankful that Ilona Andrews have kept writing during this ghastly pandemic, and do not want any idiots upsetting them. Of other self published authors I read and enjoy, one seems to have totally vanished, are they alive even.Horrible thought, but who knows, another hasn’t updated their site in months. It’s a bad time and silly little pendants are not wanted!
I think Mod R’s wings are a bit smallish.
If there’s one thing the BDH knows, it’s that Ilona and Gordon meticulously research everything – EVERYTHING – so 10+ helpful comments seems “over the top”. Am a personal fan of Mod R’s portrait – totally badass.
“To exercise extreme prejudice “. Oh how I love you and your command of language. Hugs and kisses and total support for those who expose themselves by writing.
Love the Mod R picture
I like the portrait of Mod R at work.
I want to write something (I am not a writer) just so I could use the concept of Magic Oxygen coming out of one’s butt.
It remind me that there is a new research on giving ICU patients oxygen through the butt instead of the airway???????? It may not be magical, but it can save a life ????????
Thank you, that explanation was actually really interesting.
I am a scientist with a PhD in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, specializing in molecular genetics. I totally love your premise that Arabella’s talent comes from the surrogate. It’s your fantastic outside the box thinking that makes your stories so special. Don’t let the nit pickers grind you down.
+1
Epigenetics for the win!
It’s not epigenetics in Arabella’s case, but maternal microchimerism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microchimerism
And, of course, magic.
Hope this helped ????
As a young planetary scientist, I’m excited to see what kind of new planet you are going to invent and describe ???? I can only make guesses as nothing is written yet, but I have sooo many questions about it that I’ll happily wait 10 years to have the answers to ????Is there a magnetic field ? What is the surface temperature ? Is there a greenhouse effect ? How long is the day ? And the year ? The acceleration of gravity and the density ? (Yes, my questions have nothing to do with the possibility of life on a planet. That’s the exibiologists job to know the possibility, and it’s the author’s job to make it happens if needed????)
As a reader and a fan : I don’t care about the answers, I’ll happily read whatever you write ???? And I’ll accept any explanations, because it will be as always logical, well researched and well explained :p
Go Mod R – sword at the ready
If we find an error in published books, should we send an email through the contact form? I read on my Kindle, and I’ve used the “report content error” function through their platform for several authors, but would it be appropriate to email directly through the contact form on the blog?
ModR is cool! I was lost at “sapient bioweb” but that’s ok – because I trust the authors and realize that their books are fiction – very, very good and enjoyable fiction.
It’s clearly not the right thing to say but…. I enjoyed your blog post today on non-water based building blocks of life so much that I’m almost glad some pedant annoyed you yesterday. It was a lovely exposition on the possibilities.
Gotta agree!! I learn so much unrelated science stuff here.
Mind blowing – truely.
Also, was really glad not to be eating anything when I read the Modor puppy post. Food would have been everywhere. Laughed OUT LOUD AT WORK. Very funny.
I’m always amazed at how smart you are. It’s probably why you’re able to create such amazing worlds. Ignore the ppl out to prove they know better than you! Just low self esteem on their end
While I’m sad to hear you felt like you needed to push back against some of the comments from the teaser post, I did find this science lesson really cool and interesting. I always enjoy when you share bits of knowledge.
Looking forward to more Innkeeper when we get it 🙂
First, thank you for my new favorite sentence, “M’s survival instincts are misfiring,” and second thank you for what I actually do envision modR looking like. She will terminate with extreme prejudice. We are lucky to have her protecting our authors.
Boy howdy, I’d love to be a fly on the wall when Gordon finds out about those ‘pedantic’ comments.
I reckon I’d learn new power words!
I am in awe of your ability to write. You spend the day writing to make a living and you manage to post a rebuttal like this. Amazing.
Mod R is an effing Sith Lord. Color me surprised- I had no clue (seriously NONE).
Writers are some of the most versatile and intelligent beings on this planet. Thank you for sharing your worlds with us! Without you our world would be a cold dark place.
It always floors me that ANYONE would complain about FREE fiction!
As a proud member of the BDH, let me say how sorry I am that you have had to deal with this nonsense.
I’m sure some people really do think they are being “helpful” but they are also setting up a scenario where they assume that you haven’t done any research or have any idea what you’re talking about and it just comes off as insulting and self-aggrandizing, not helpful.
No one can be an expert in everything, but when you have needed help you have ASKED for it. I am thinking of Catalina’s formula to try to determine if Alessandro’s car is going to make the jump safely. You asked, people answered (and listed their credentials as to why their opinion should be given notice) and the formula was correct in the book.
People need to adopt a wait-to-be-asked attitude when it comes to giving their opinions and “corrections”.
Also, Ilona is a BAD ASS CHEMISTRY GODDESS.
I have no idea about anything you wrote. However, I can state with authority that I am waiting for anything you write.
I realize there’s a lot of “satisfying takedown-ness” here…but I also found the science really really cool!! The whole way membranes form is just mind-boggling to me, and just awesome to learn the science behind it!
Sadly, it was things like that that sucked the fun out of my blog and made me pull the plug. Honestly, I got tired of the demands, the erroneous “corrections” of my posts, and the behind the scenes insults. All for something I did for free. I don’t miss the super duper smart keyboard warriors. At all.
This demonstrates why I love that big, beautiful, intelligent brain you have! You are brilliant and I adore your writing! Can’t wait for the next Innkeeper or any if your different series! ❤️
I was afraid of this happening.
Apparently lockdowns have an adverse affect on civility.
But…
I would love, love to have an Innkeeper to read.
Great Fiction…..
Yes, mind candy, yum, yum
I really, really, really love devouring good mind candy ????
I love a good verbal smackdown. You are awesome. Thank you for all you do to make this world a better place.
Maybe I missed a post, but what does BDH stand for?
Book Devouring Horde
So sorry you have to deal with such idiots. Waiting with delight for novella!
AHA, Michael is a male version of Moderator R. It makes sense now
Dear Mod R, I can see there is an Innkeeper teaser, but when I follow the link I get a blank screen. This makes me sad. Please help. I can read all the other blog entries just fine.
Regards, Ines
Hi Ines,
The teaser snippet of the Innkeeper is here https://ilona-andrews.com/2021/we-must-find-him/
Transcript for the image can be found below it, but just in case ☺️, it says:
“The dunes of Karron are born of electrified sand and methane winds. We must find him before the planet swallows him whole.”
I hope this helps ????
Such a very cool discussion of alien life possibilities, even if the original impetus was an inaccurate/annoying comment!!
Thank you for this fascinating analysis.
Looking forward to more delightful Innkeeper scenarios.
I don’t typically read the Innkeeper serialization, I wait for the edited version to go up for sale. And then I buy all ebook, paperback, and sometimes the audio version as well. Speaking of 😉 there’s several IA audible books on sale for $5 each for another day if you’re a premium plus audible member (and many more great books by other authors. Anyone that liked Cradle by Will Wight should check out Reincarnation by Michael Head. Same wonderful narrator too. Love Travis Baldree!! ). I got the first four Hidden Legacy and Blood Heir since I hadn’t picked them up yet. I love “rereading” books using the audio versions; I already know what’s going to happen so if I miss a minute or two that’s ok. I just finished Iron & Magic the other day (for the third time!), and I think it’s a good time for a reread of HL for when book 6 comes out. Love the new narrator of HL too btw. Anyway, thanks for all you do, House Andrews. Any day with an blog post from you is a Good Day