I hate to be a pedantic bore (no, actually I love it) but it is theoretically possible to set up life based on carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, but where liquid methane substitutes for water.
M in the comments
M’s survival instincts are misfiring.
Let’s be pedantic. We haven’t told you anything except that there is methane and electrified sand, and the carbon-based life is not welcome. M has no idea if there is silicon based life thriving on this planet or if a planet-wide energy based sapient bioweb encircles it, projecting its consciousness into space, or what have you, because we haven’t told you anything about it. Yet M took the time to correct us and he relished it. He really loves being a pedant.
I was going to let all those comments quietly disappear, but this one got me, because I can’t let this misunderstanding of chemistry go. I am going to assume that M is basing that weirdo statement above on Titan of our lovely solar system, which has methane and nitrogen atmosphere and liquid methane seas.
For life as we know it to exist even in its most primitive form, there must be a membrane, a boundary that defines the inner space of the organism and separates it from the environment. Here it is, courtesy of Encyclopedia Britannica.
The cell membrane has two functions: to protect things inside and to allow nutrients to enter and waste products to exit. Our membranes are made mostly of phospholipids and sterols (mostly cholesterol.)
Do you see that O in the formula? That’s oxygen. The P stand for phosphorus, also a very helpful element. The lipid molecules are polarized, which is what makes them “stick” together.
What does that mean? Imagine a sewing pin.
This is our phospholipid molecule. We’ve discussed before that water is sticky because its molecule is polarized. The head of the our “pin” is also sticky. It’s polar and likes water. The long end (there are 2 of them per each head) is hydrophobic and doesn’t like water.
If you drop oil into water, it will quickly form a round drop. These guys function the same way. You drop them in water and they right away will arrange themselves into a sphere with the heads pointing toward water and tails pointing inside our little ball. And because we still have water inside the ball, they make a second layer that’s a mirror of the first one. This forms a barrier that’s surprisingly resilient and flexible.
M, for the record, the planet is not Titan, but if it were Titan with its liquid methane seas, we would still need this lipid membrane. However, there is a big problem with that.
Phosphorus and oxygen, found in Earth cell membranes, don’t exist in Titan’s frigid methane oceans, so any cell-like membranes would have to be based on nitrogen, hydrogen and carbon, all of which are abundant on Titan.
NASA
NASA stipulated that life on Titan, if it were to exist, is methane-based and oxygen-free. It would be based on nitrogen, hydrogen, and carbon, because there is no oxygen or phosphorus in Titan’s methane seas. There might be water under the liquid methane, but that’s a whole different story.
So, no, you can’t “set up life based on carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, but where liquid methane substitutes for water.” Because there is no phosphorus or oxygen, you can’t have a lipid membrane.
But what if there is magic oxygen that we miraculously pulled out of our butt and stuck into other elements available on Titan?
Okay, if you have carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, and you wanted to make a lipid molecule, you could make a fatty acid. It’s nonpolar, so it won’t work. You could make cholesterol, which is again largely nonpolar. (No, we are not going to be discussing hydroxyl groups. We are keeping it simple.) You need phosphorus-oxygen combo for that polarity.
Even if you somehow – and I don’t know how – made a magically polar lipid molecule out of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen, it still wouldn’t work. Why? Because methane liquefies at -260°F. The surface of Titan is a brisk -292 degrees Fahrenheit.
However, the phospholipid membranes, which are so strong and elastic in water, do not perform as well in liquid methane. The nonpolar tails of phospholipids would seem to be compatible with nonpolar liquid methane, and the polar heads with each other; does this suggest that an inverse membrane to those formed in water could exist in methane? Unfortunately not; this phospholipid hypothesis neglects the fact that the tails of phospholipids are long-chain hydrocarbons, which will be rigid at cryogenic temperatures. Furthermore, the phospholipid head component atoms, oxygen and phosphorus, are not available in any form in the methane seas of Titan and presumably not in any similar liquid methane environment. Inverted-phase liposomes are therefore not a viable option. The idea of using polarity to prevent dissolution, however, is valid if any suitable materials exist.
Membrane alternatives in worlds without oxygen: Creation of an azotosome
Translation: it is too cold. The membrane has to be flexible and at this temperature our poor lipids float there, stiff as a nail, and refuse to stick together. So our trio of C, H, and O is right out.
We have to search for alternatives to lipids. You can theoretically set up a life-enabling membrane based on vinyl cyanide, which looks like this.
It is theorized that vinyl cyanide could form a spherical membrane in a methane sea. We don’t know if it happens. We only know that it could happen.
Now then, we posted a teaser for Innkeeper, and ModR had to trash 10 comments. We haven’t even started. There is literally no fiction up. I am sure that M was excited to share his understanding of methane-based life, but by comment #10, I am done.
Our blog policy is that any person who offers corrections without listing their credentials will have said corrections removed without explanation. If you are correcting something we wrote about Houston, you should live there. If you are correcting something a Mancunian says, you better be one. If you are not an expert, please cite your references. Otherwise, you are spreading misinformation, which we have to refute or which will create a long comment thread and lead to fights. If you see something in error of fact (not a typo) in the narrative, please email us using the contact form.
Most of BDH really enjoyed the teaser, so this bottom part is addressed to those who, like M, relish being pedantic and decided to nitpick 3 sentences (WTF) in the previous post. You have to decide if you are going to be “helpful” or if you want to read Innkeeper in a serial form. No person alive can write in a toxic atmosphere – and it’s not methane this time – that so many “helpful corrections” create. Especially since half of the time, as M’s comment above demonstrates, they are in error.
Gordon has not seen this post yet, because his fuse is short when it comes to Innkeeper corrections. He is not a fan of serialization, because some people tend to get obsessive and abusive. I hope that by the end of August we will all be on the same page regarding Innkeeper’s availability.
Please do not trash each other in the comments. I have an ER scene to write in Ruby Fever because important people are very hurt, and I have told Mod R to exercise extreme prejudice. 😀
You folks are the best!
“We are keeping it simple.”
:::laugs:::flails:::
That broke my brain, which is why I was never a biology or chemistry major and **why I love House Andrews’ stories so much** — you all make the implausible (magic) completely plausible because it’s clear you know your stuff. Thank you for building such absolutely fascinating worlds that I feel like I can actually visit.
Thank you for the clarification, entertainment and the fantastic fiction! Your authorship is one of a kind and should be treated with courtesy and respect. Salute to Mod R!
If only eye rolling was a form of exercise!
For what it’s worth, I personally would be just as happy if you wrote the entire thing in beautiful privacy and then sold it to the BDH who will happily pay for it. The work and your mental health is the important thing here and a very small but very loud percentage of the BDH will never be able to keep their mouths shut. Seriously, makes us wait, please.
I must say, I love it when fantasy authors of any stripe get into the science of how things work. Thank you!
I so enjoy your smack downs ????
Aaannnnd then you give me anxiety telling us important people in my favorite series are hurt ???????? ????????????????
That was a glorious slaughter. ????
This is why strong women are the best! Thank you for your service <333
Thank you for all your books.
Re-reading Wildfire and just had to grin ????; Fullerton and his comment about extreme prejudice.
OMG!! My 25 year old is a FNP/ENP, er nurse in case u need any info while writing er scenes. She is huge fan! Just saying!!
At Mod R: I think you’re portrait needs to be on a t-shirt.
At House Andrews: I love your books, blog and anything else you care to share. I am simply grateful that I get to read and enjoy.
And the typo ????♀️????♀️????♀️ Apologies for the wrong “your”.
‘You have to decide if you are going to be 1.“helpful” ‘
or….
2. ‘ read serial form’
I vote 2
Why are there always idiots who spoil it for everyone?
Heh – let’s NOT be pedantic. Lest anyone forget, Ilona has a background in science. I took a fair amount of science classes in college and I’m going to go stick my head in a bucket of ice because I think I sprained my brain trying to wrap my head around all that.
Haha fact-filled smackdowns are the best!
I just finished reading the Innkeeper series again and have an odd niggling question that I can’t seem to get out if my head! I can’t work out in my head how Gertrude Hunt and the Avalon Subdivision are situated. I tried to search for a picture of Gertrude Hunt that shows its orientation vis-à-vis the Avalon subdivision. Does Gertrude Hunt face the subdivision at a T junction. Is the road between the Inn and the subdivision small enough that a conversation between Officer Marais and the Draziri can be heard from the edge of front yard of the Inn?
Normally I’d say unleash the Gordon but it’s been a generally shit year and he doesn’t need that grief. UNLEASH THE MOD.
Ummm, is no one else in the BDH a bit curious about who is seriously injured and in the ER?
I am!
On a lighter note, I’m wondering who was under the partially open floating sippy cup when it stopped floating. ????
Damn….I wish I was mod R….
Wouldn’t readers rather House Andrews focus on writing than spend an hour on a biochem? Also, aren’t these fiction books? If HA says the Planet Earth in innkeeper is made up of marshmallows- they call the shots. (Although, I appreciate the effort and research HA takes, when they don’t need to for fictional world with MAGIC.)
But if HA is accepting questions for a future Q&A: how do mates work in KD world? Is choosing a mate voluntary? Is it fate? Could shapeshifters pick anyone and experience the mating symptoms? Is it for life or can one divorce and experience a new mating bond? I’m just sneakily trying to figure out how long Derek recognized Julie’s importance even if his mind wouldn’t go there when she was younger. Mates are a fictional phenomenon I enjoy but don’t need to understand, so please feel free to let this question disappear in to the abyss (or sato construct, har har). I’ll see myself out.
I think mates are not really magical-for-life stuff in here. I rmb about a divorced wolf couple case that kate complain to curran in his coma.
Thanks Pang! I had wondered if the mood swings and territorial instincts Angela and Curran exhibited after mating we’re symptomatic of a greater instinct. Mostly to overanalyze Derek and Julie, to be honest. But given her age when she left, it’s more comfortable to think of them as just friends back then (from Derek’s POV). Still, Magic Stars was one of the most romantic non-romances I’ve enjoyed so I love scanning for more clues and context. Thanks again!
Hey Nm,
Mates are not predestined in the KD world.
They have different courting rituals and culture around the mate relationships because of being shifters (breaking into each other’s territory to demonstrate prowess, feeding their mate etc), but there is no “fated urge” overwhelming their consent. Divorces and breakups are possible (off the top of my head, the Wolf clan has several examples).
Julie and Derek’s relationship is very complex, but Magic Stars and hopefully the sequels to Blood Heir will give us further insights ????. #MetalRose 4ever!
I hope this helped ????
Thank you Moderator for answering pure speculative questions on my end. You’re so prompt and thorough! I look forward to learning more about mates and Julie and Derek in particular in future books. I’m a sucker for a years-long payoff.
Cool Beans! I truly love coming here. You always brighten my day.
This is the most weirdly timed of all of your posts that I’ve read. I’m going back to school for my nursing degree and just took a biology exam exactly on cell membranes. Just turned it in online by midnight, come here and am asking myself—wait is this the blog or homework?!
I’m sorry people are such…pedants… Whenever I read a blog I’m just happy to hear what’s going on in your life! Reading your blogs are some of my best times on the internet these days.
Good luck with the exam!
There is a Dutch children’s book. A “future novel” (not SciFi!) written by Tonke Dragt in 1969. Dutch title “Torenhoog en Mijlenbreed”. It may have been translated as “The Forests of Venus”.
Venus has been colonised. Explorers/researchers live under a dome.
Venus is described as extremely colourful, not unlike our rain forests. The atmosphere contains oxygen and there are many lifeforms, some even as intelligent as humans.
Scientifically everything the book says about Venus is wrong. Nobody cares, the book has won many prizes for youth literature.
I still have the book. My copy is from 1971.
I suppose it was a birthday present since I was too young to buy my own books in 1971.
I re-read occasionally and I still love it.
Me…googling the word pedantic.
New vocabulary learnt. Thank you!
Same!
Who did the wicked drawing at the end of the post? I LOVE IT. Also, major kudos on the chemistry lesson. While I SUCK at science, I find it fascinating and fun. I’m a history buff. Have fun with the ER scene. 🙂
I love the image of Moderate M at work.
Don’t think we need to say anything more as Mod-M blade appears sharp enough (I currently have blade envy *sighs*)
I guess something happened in the comments?
Don’t tell me, I’ll just go watch tiktoks
I enjoyed the exobiology lesson. Very cool.
Thanks for the explanation, I love to learn new stuff like this and sadly it has been quite some time since my last biology/chemistry classes.
I hadnt read the comment in question of course but I just love to see all the attention to detail you employ when writing your works.
House Andrews rules! And innkeeper has a special place in my heart ❤
It is sad to hear that some people get …. mean when there is serialisation, please know that whenever innkeeper is being uploaded you make my week as I look forward to each chapter or snippet 🙂
This may be regarding the Innkeeper series, but that was a Kate Daniels style smackdown LOL. Don’t let them get to you, we love what you do!
Don’t mess with Ilona. She is (they are) brilliant! Thanks for the interesting chem lesson.
The interesting thing is “Life as we know it” Looking back in time, “life as we know it” is so different now than it was in the 1400s or during the time of the ancient Greeks, for example. Who is to say that sometime in the future the math and physics we use today may be proved to be as out of date as as when Earth was the center of the Universe.
Truth, itself is malleable. a majority opinion. In the time that Earth was thought to be the center of the universe, that concept was known to be the absolute truth.
Love your work. Thank you for writing and for blogging ????
I love that you know all this!
Absolutely everything you said there, and also, in case anyone is interested, water molecules are good a biological solvent because they are small and polar (because of the oxygen), much more than methane… so if anything, in conditions where water can’t be in a liquid state,liquid ammonia would probably be more efficient as a solvent than methane! I’m a second year biology student and this information came from one of my professors, so pretty sure about that, but feel free to correct me if you know something I don’t 🙂
Thanks for the post! Dizzying but clearly to the point. Good luck with the ER scene O_O and I loved the Mod R portrait ^_^
I absolutely believe that moderation requires PPE equipment like armor and sharpened blades. 5 stars for an impressive on-the-job presence :).
I know it’s so petty, but I want to frame this amazing smack-down and read it as a form of meditation.
I was watching Rocky and Bullwinkle last night, I adore that cartoon series; it was entertaining for adults (I mean as a kid I had zero understanding of the cold war and why Boris and Natasha made my parents laugh) and hilarious for kids. Although to the modern woke culture it would be viewed as offensive, it is so f’ing funny to a politically incorrectzoid like me. I always loved the Mr. Know It All features, which perfectly captured human/moose nature. Some things never change.
Just in case you need one, My husband has a PhD in Biochemistry specifically protein folding. It’s a very weird field. He is currently a patent agent for Thermo Fisher Scientific and does work for their instrument group. If you have questions about biochemistry I would be happy to pass them along to him. I’m sure he would like to actually use his degree;-)
I thought it was very cool. The bio-major with a chem-minor in me was very excited.
I rarely read comments as I am here to see what you have to say but sorry you get crappy ones.
If you liked this discussion, I highly recommend Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir. Its a mix of biochemistry, elementary particle physics and space survival.
Ooh, Ilona threw down with SCIENCE. Love it!!!
I so wouldn’t play the pedantic game with you:
– let’s remember that you called an opera to make sure of the paint color for one scene for KD ( https://ilona-andrews.com/2018/writing-questions-research/ ),
– that when naming things, you go check it’s meaning in several languages ( https://ilona-andrews.com/2021/of-birds-and-names-ferocious-nature-of/ ),
– that you have a fucking major in biochemistry as you fully demonstrated in this post ( https://ilona-andrews.com/2020/coming-to-america/ ).
If you taught me one thing it is to never underestimate you : nothing is done without both research and purpose.
????
+1000
Didn’t Ilona get a university scholarship due to her proficiency in chemistry?
Please don’t ruin things for the rest of us by your arrogance, pedantic people!
Ilona & Gordon, I’m so sorry you have these types of interactions. You’re so generous with us & it’s a poor repayment.
I buy everything you write the moment it’s available for pre-order & have never been disappointed. Thank you!
Please, I love Innkeeper, I tell everyone about it, I’ve gifted the series to people, and I am commenting so you know there are loads of people just like me who feel the same. When people blow up your comments section I hope you know the rest of us are here, keeping our fingers crossed.
Also, I have sent this post to my children to show them yet another way that science is useful – when writing fiction! (and telling off a know-it-all)
Love Mod R! love your books because your world building all hangs together and does not contradict itself. That’s all I need to keep my suspension of disbelief going
On being precise…….
I read the Ilona Andrews books to relax and enjoy the characters, world-building, humor, etc. I’m not looking to nitpick or deliver/get a scientific treatise. It would be a shame to have the authors ticked off enough to stop writing the series and move on to something else. I’m sure I’d like the “something else”, but Innkeeper and the serialization is fun. Let’s all relax, suspend disbelief, enjoy their creativity and keep the fun going. Please.
Mod R, you’re my hero. Also, Ilona, big ups on continuing to be a chemistry nerd forever. I aspire to that level of glorious chemistry love! (But seriously, how do you remember this level of detail??? I’m one year out of my last O Chem 2 class and can’t keep this level of expertise alive) Thanks for keeping the blog a safe corner of the inter-webs, and for continuing to write here as well as books. I am so absolutely grateful for you.
Couldn’t follow the science but the pictures are really pretty!