We are freezing here in Texas. I’ve thrown caution to the wind and made myself a second cup of tea. We started with Hot Apple Spice from Harney’s and now I have Christmas tea from Fortnum brewing.
Questions from readers have been piling up, so here is an interesting one.
What is a workshop burn?
A workshop burn occurs when writers overedit. One time I watched a documentary on beauty pageants and a hair stylist shared that hair looks best when it’s a little dirty, which is why we put product in it. Good writing is like that, a little dirty in a sense that it’s slightly rough and imperfect. There is texture to it.
In a workshop environment, you have a single manuscript being edited by a lot of people, and everyone is actively looking for imperfections. Even worse, everyone is also simultaneously attempting to perfect their own writing, and most writers concentrate on a single issue at a time. Meaning that if Bob became convinced that he is using the word “said” too much, he is going to scrutinize every occurrence of said in your manuscript.
The apartment below mine had the only balcony of the house. I saw a girl standing on it, completely submerged in the pool of autumn twilight. She wasn’t doing a thing that I could see, except standing there leaning on the balcony railing, holding the universe together. The way the profile of her face and body refracted in the soupy twilight made me feel a little drunk.
~ J.D. Salinger, A Girl I Knew
A gorgeous paragraph.
The writer sees the girl and forgets to breathe. It is a moment of profound loneliness and longing. You know that even if they never meet again, the writer will remember the girl for the rest of his life.
In a workshop environment, inevitably someone would want to fix “She wasn’t doing a thing” to “she wasn’t doing anything.” Then someone else will point out that it is too passive and it needs to be rewritten in an active voice, so it will become “doing nothing”: or “She did nothing,” and then someone else will point out that the girl has no description. Pretty soon you have “The girl leaned on the balcony rail, doing nothing, the curtain of her dark hair spilling over her shoulders” and the magic is gone.
Here is what Chat GPT did with it:
The apartment below mine was the only one with a balcony. I watched a girl standing on it, enveloped by the rich haze of autumn twilight. She wasn’t doing anything that I could discern, just leaning against the railing, as if she were holding the universe in place. The way the soft contours of her face and body merged with the hazy light left me feeling a bit unsteady, as though the world itself had shifted.
Ehhhh, no.
Does this mean you should ignore the workshop feedback?
It’s a complicated question. The stock answer is to use the suggestions that you feel make your writing better, but when you are starting out, it’s often hard to figure out what is “better.”
If you are in doubt, it helps to ask when the edits were made. Did the reader read the whole piece of writing first and then offered corrections because they are supposed to or was the need to correct strong enough to stop the reader? Only the second type of correction really matters. Did they stumble over something? Was the issue severe enough to interrupt the act of reading? If it was, it might be something to consider. But then again, we have Bob, who will highlight every “said” in the manuscript as he is going through it out of principle.
::raises her cup of tea:: Here is to Bob! Good luck with your writing this week.
First?
Certified 😀
That’s great! I’m in a different time zone and always end up late for the party :-D.
Thanks for the great post :-).
Can someone please explain the “first” thing to me? I feel like I’m competing for a prize and I have no idea what it is lol
There is no prize 🙂 . It’s the satisfaction of seeing an article first, or most likely, of being the one to beat the rest of the Horde to the comments. Some people play it, most people ignore it. We all still love each other and our soupy twilight differences hehehe.
Ahh, ok. Thanks!
It’s an amusing and harmless trait of the BDH, everyone wants to be the first to comment. No prizes, just the glory of it all!
I did take a screenshot of mine, so I have a trophy 🥰😊
I just read a story that a fellow found a picture of Billy the Kid playing croquet, authenticated it and sold it for over a million. True? Not sure. But with an ever expanding BDH, I can see a future where that screenshot could become a collectible 🙂
I assure you, saying “first” when you’re the first to comment is far, far older on the Internet than the BDH 🙂
🫖☕️❤️
The burn, feel the burn.
😀 The burn is how you know it’s working!
Best of luck with the temperatures; it’s a tad cool hereabouts, too.
Interesting! Thanks!
A dreary cold run up to a hopefully snowy day. Always a special occurrence around here in central TX. 🤣😜
Hey Mod R,
Quick question. I’m trying to sort out my personal KD universe timeline and I’m wondering if you could clarify how long after the shift Kate was born? I don’t think it ever explicitly said in the books but I could just have missed it.
Hi Beth.
I really don’t want any references to the timeline. 🙂 I’m trying to get Ace to edit them out. We changed the timeline as we went through the series out of the need to keep things contemporary, because people prefer to read about events in the future rather than the past, and the series is 17 years old.
Ok!
Can a published book still be edited? I have noticed some word changes in my current Kindle versions as opposed to the printed original books. For example, in Magic Rises, Volodja calls Astamur “silly” in my kindle now, when the print version says “crazy.” (This is what happens when the Horde re-reads things a lot!) 😉
Yes, it can, if your publisher is accommodating. Magic Bites is 17 years old. Will be 18 in March and can legally enlist in the military and sign a contract. Because of this, some word choices didn’t age well, so we edited the books to be a little more modern.
Thank you! 😊
I trust HA to edit their published works with a light hand that improves the work.
On the other “hand” some publishers have been known to edit classics by authors like Mark Twain and Agatha Christie. Attempting to bring a modern sensibility to a century-plus old work may (or may not) be a laudable goal, but it risks ruining the artistic essence and the power of that work.
And edits to works such as the Sherlock Holmes stories and Anne Frank’s Diary of a Young Girl have been used to attempt to move public domain works back into copyrighted status.
Editing a published work, or body of work, can be a complex and even treacherous undertaking.
It is a complex issue, that ultimately has to weigh how much hurt it has the potential to cause to those most vulnerable.
One thing is certain, we won’t be solving it in this comment section, and as I feel we have strayed rather far off-topic, I will deploy mod powers and close this thread now 🙂
Makes sense and good to know!
Keep cozy there in Texas. Great post. Always interested to hear about writer life & issues.
That is such a good idea. The future always stays in the future as long as you don’t date it. I’ll just ignore dates when I reread. Definitely better.
Here’s to more tea, always!! 🫖☕
I am ever grateful that I am a reader; I will leave the world of writing to those who understand its intricate workings!! 📚
That’s why I hardly ever comment on the writing l, since it’s the writer’s choice and more importantly the phrasing is an integral part of each character.
In the best of my writing classes:
One gentleman, whose native language was NOT English, wrote a story so beautiful we had no suggestions. None. I deeply wish I remembered his name, because I would love to see if he had continued to write — no doubt whatever in my mind that he’d be published if he did.
My story, which by no coincidence was the only genre fantasy story, got completely torn apart. No one understood what was happening. I was told I had to be explicit that the POV was from a dragon, and none of the clues I left lying around — including the burned body of a dead knight — was sufficient. The professor made me stay after and gave me a long talk on genre writing, the key point being that a reader generally knows when they are sitting down to read fantasy and/or science fiction, and has their brain set likewise. And to ignore about 90% of the corrections. And to find myself a genre writing workshop for better feedback.
But that experience definitely helped me develop a thicker skin.
You had a good professor there. I hope we hear from the other student someday, in addition to hearing from you.
Oh, meeeee toooo.
You could use ejaculated instead of said.
Hey, if it’s good enough for Arthur Conan Doyle 😁
Oddly that’s one of the things that stops me from reading sometimes – if the author slavishly follows the “Never say ‘said'” rule. All those awkwardly selected verbs get distracting and I lose focus on what is being…said.
That’s not odd at all hehe. It’s one of the very common amateur writer pitfalls and something any editor should waste no time setting right.
Although the time Watson ejaculated out the window is still one of my faves 😅
Apropos of nothing: your avatar is adorable!
Hehe, we are all freezing!
Um, it’s 27 degrees (Celsius so 81 or so F) *inside* my house after a 33 degree day outside… the windows and doors are all open with house fans on to get some cool air inside. It is dusk so it is finally cooler out than in and still dropping… heatwaves in Oz are fun so I wouldn’t wish it on you guys!
Water with frozen passionfruit pulp as “icecubes” would be my avatar. It is my drink of choice when I’m writing/painting/sketching indoors in weather like this. At some point I may need my aircon but for now I’m good. Tho singlet and shorts help 😏
lol – Many are fond of that one!
It takes reading him again to remember, at least for me, how good a writer he was. And I *love* Katherine Addison’s update in Angel of the Crows.
I guess “said” is sort of invisible. It doesn’t trip me up, either way.
‘ejaculated out the window’ – that’s hilarious.
Said is an invisible word. 🙂
And then there’s Robert Parker who proved exactly how invisible by only EVER using said. “Where are you going?” she said.
I was halfway through the second book by him that I was reading before I noticed.
unless you’re Bob.
Aaannd, in hindsight I used a poor choice of adjective to modify “follows”. That could cause some readers to stop in their tracks too. I could have used rigidly, doggedly, or dutifully, among others.
Adverb. Geez. My brain is freezing, apparently.
I need to get back to writing again. I’m not an amazing writer but when rereading my old writing I’ve been able to get lost in my own work 😂 My biggest problem with writing is my small children. It is hard to find the time to write.
That would definitely do it. You’re pretty much limited to writing very, very early or very, very late. But they don’t stay small, though it feels like forever when you’re in the middle of it.
iIt’s not surprising a computer with no soul would take the soul out of writing….
I Beta read for one of my favorite authors and went in with the mind set of must fix everything….which after the first time I was like oh no..I learned to stop and reread what the whole paragraph was saying. I didn’t want to change what they were trying to say. then I proceeded to ramble on in a email about a novels leangth answering questions lol. so probably not much help tbh.
I dropped my daughter off at Ontario Intl Airport, CA yesterday for a trade show she is particpating in Dallas. It was about 60 when I dropped her off. It was 28 degrees when she landed. This morning she said it was 23 degrees.
Stay cozy down there! Up in Wisconsin we woke up to -8F and we’ve made it all the way up to two. I’m rereading an old favorite of mine on Libby, and the typos from whatever auto-upload they did are like catching a toe on a sidewalk crack. I’m so grateful for good writing and editing!
I’m drinking Harney’s Victorian London Fog this morning. It’s a new bag of tea and it smells amazing.
I appreciate the explanation of workshop burn. I’ve always been a bit fearful about sharing my writing with unknown people for that reason.
Thanks for the Monday morning blog post. I needed a pick me up today!
Enjoy that second cup of tea!
Tea is my drink of choice always. Roibbos (red bush) with mint Home blend. When I need the caffeine whole leaf Chinese with Assam or Darjeeling. Yay tea.
i have been obsessed with this black tea lately–
https://www.harney.com/products/new-vithanakande?variant=35000708678
strong but not bitter and smooth and velvet in the mouth. Well, I guess too many other people thought so too since it’s sold out haha whoops
Thank you! I think this applies to any art form, and it’s a very useful reminder.
Is cold here in NM too. Will be down around 14 tonight for us–unusually cold but we get a night or sometimes two during the winter that is terribly cold. No snow on the ground, but tomorrow will be cold. It’s cold right now. If I were standing on a balcony, I’d only notice someone else if they had a thicker coat than me. As it is, I have on three shirts, one of which is my dad’s heavy flannel, a goose down vest, woolies and thick sweatpants. And I’m INSIDE. When I put on my down coat and shearling hat to go outside, I look like a ninja turtle muppet.
I wondered about this with all of the Maggie editing.
It’s freezing here too (Oregon). The only good thing about it is it kills a lot of bugs.
I’m about two hours north of you and I too have been on a tea binge. So much better than plain water when it’s cold outside. I’ve been enjoying jasmine green tea, and cinnamon tea.
stay warm and I will think of you in Texas while we deal with below 0 weather and goodness only knows what windchill we will have with our 2 feet of snow. Oh and feel so sorry for you! NOPE huggs!
This type of problem of outside input is an issue for painters (and I am sure other artists as well).
Georgia O’Keefe went to 1 gallery opening, ever. She declared she would not attend another, as she wanted no other artists’ work to affect her personal style!
Have you tried the Harney’s hot cinnamon tea? It’s very good.
Very interesting blog today. I only dabble in writing but I love hearing all about the intricacies of writing. I admire anyone who does it as well as HA (ok, maybe nobody does it as well as HA, but you know what I mean!) 😂
Enjoy the tea! I just tried a new (to me) kind of tea. A Korean grocery store just opened in my town, and they had corn bubble tea. I was very intrigued and HAD to try it. It was very light, not too sweet, and you could really taste the corn (not something I was sure I’d like in a drink, but it was delicious!)
I also bought some of their corn silk tea bags, tried them with a bit of milk and a drop of honey, and I loved those as well. It is my new warming and very comfy cozy caffeine-free tea. 🥰 Good timing….it’s very cold here too! Stay warm everybody! 🥶❄️☃️
Thanks for this post, I really enjoyed it! I write boring Council reports for a living, and even with that type of document you can still hear the individual voice of the writer come through. A writer’s personal style is a big part of why I love (or don’t love) a book!
If I ever become a Beta reader, I think I would only comment on the typos, and on the consistency and logic of the story, not on the writing style as it’s not my domain. I’m also more pissed off by lack of consistency and stupid actions taken by characters for the sake of drama.
Amen!
So just read the blog via the email. Thanks for the reminder. I am between Houston and Galveston Texas. It is currently 25 F and feels like 12 F. I woke up because the cat wanted out (indoor/outdoor adopted feral). If cold I hang out with him so he knows he is not locked out. He refused to leave the porch. I ended up letting him into the attached garage. There is snow on the ground here. The roads look icy. Now settled under a blanket in my layers with cat on lap. Going to snooze again. And snow until 1 pm?
I wonder if the thing I tried to read a few books ago was written by AI or just burned to a crisp. Instead of face, facade. Instead of hair, tresses. Instead of expression, mien. So so overdone.
The AI writing style reminds me of every corporate presentation I have ever had to sit through, mixed with press releases and seasoned with 19th century poets.
I once co-taught a writing intensive class with a person whose only contribution to editing the student papers was to go through the manuscripts and change all instances of that to which. Yes, Dorothy, they DO exist!
I’ve started a doctoral program and am having to write, write, write! It all seems dry as a bone to me, but I don’t know what should and shouldn’t go in yet. Off to more writing!
Why in heavens name would you ask–or allow–workshop participants to edit your manuscript? Comment, yes. Edit, no. Absolutely no.
The process of reading a workshop sample and offering comments is, in fact, an edit. 🙂
Editing schmediting. Grammarly just protested “schmediting” even though it’s how someone might actually talk. And that is my issue with the infernal program. It’s great when doing academic writing, and yet I still have to tell it that “No, sometimes a passive voice, even in academic writing, is allowed.” I hit “dismiss” so many times it’s almost worse than having the darn thing on my computer. Already in this post it’s snarking at me for using a very casual tone and speech pattern because, dude, I am not writing for a professor, resume, or professional publication. I’m writing to the BDH and Ilona, and we’re not formal here as far as I know. For work or school or other places, you need to be absolutely formal editors like Grammarly and the AI thingies (I’m still walking around wondering if the future is going to play out as a Terminator or Demolition Man world) are great. For poetry, and that sample paragraph was an absolutely gorgeous example of how prose can be poetic, it, frankly, sucks.
Hilarious.
My comment including someone noticing the poetic paragraph gets posted right after you noticing the poetic paragraph. It’s really beautiful.
I guess the AI lacks a little of the I that would make it I.
Gorgeous paragraph indeed.
It really stirs emotion. It could be the heart of a poem. I could put this on the wall. I will. Do I need permission🤔
Your comment”the need to correct is strong enough to stop the reader”. That’s the key phrase I have looked for. A number of books I’ve read have done this and I didn’t have a term for it (I consume books, no negative criticism). If I understand it, this is for the editor.
Ethereal ethereal ethereal. It distracts from the reading.
I hope someone else noticed the gorgeous paragraph
I’m autistic and hugely grateful for the explanation. I never really ‘got’ Salinger and you have explained really clearly what I’m missing.
I am so glad it helped, Esme!