Hi, guys.
I am writing this by dictating to Dragon Naturally Speaking. Wheee.
For those of you who missed the twitch chat, I got my doctor results back. The good news is that I’m neither diabetic nor pre-diabetic, which was my biggest fear. My glucose level is normal. In fact, it was so ordinary, my doctor hadn’t even mentioned it when discussing lab results with me before, because he didn’t realize it was a concern. Yay, super restrictive diet. The bad news is because I type upward of 500,000 words a year my hands are beat up. The doctor compared my injuries to that of a veteran pianist.
I have to tell you, dictating is really weird.
Basically, I have injured my hands, and the first time it happened I should’ve stopped typing. Instead I kept typing, reinjuring them further and further. I know exactly how it happened, to0. When we were finishing Magic Triumphs and Iron and Magic (Dragon typed this as Ottoman magic, hehe), we pulled marathon typing sessions both times. I think it was something ridiculous like 8,000 or 9,000 words in one day for Magic Triumphs. It was just too much.
So my prescription is not typing for two weeks. Gordon is sitting next to me and cackling, and he laughs every time he hears this. They offered me steroid shots into my fingers and I said no.
So right now, I’m dictating my parts of Diamond Fire to Gordon, who has been amazingly patient. We’re hoping to finish Diamond Fire this week and then we will resume the Innkeeper.
If you are waiting for the twitch session upload, it will be posted sometime today.
Thank you for all of the lovely emails you sent us. We really appreciate it.
Well, that’s all my news for now. I’m going to go back to the house and try to dictate like the wind.
I’m a long time fan of your work. I’m also a practioner of Chinese medicine and certified aromatherapist. ( 400+ hours of clinical training). I would be happy to make you a sports injury formula for hematomas and bleeding, swelling, and pain. You could apply this to your wrists and fingers. It cuts healing time down dramatically. No charge, it’s the least I can do to give back, after all these years. Please feel free to look at my credentials re: my training and practice, on my website. My bio lists them. This formula would be applied topically. One never ingests essential oils. If you’re interested, send me an email with your shipping address, and I’ll get it right out to you.
This is such a nice offer, which wasn’t even made to me and still I’m touched by your generosity and kindness. You’re a good person!
Agree.
+1
I’m so glad that you had, mostly, good news from your doctor. Take as much time as you need to rest and recuperate! It’s so awesome how the two of you work so well as a team and manage to maintain your sense of humor. I love absolutely everything you write and will wait as long as it takes to read it. Thank you for not getting frustrated and throwing in the towel.
+1
+1 Ilona>
We really mean it! Take time off for the holiday and just relax.
Hug your new yarn and tell it you’re thinking about what will make it look the prettiest. That will keep it from feeling unloved until you can knit again.
So glad that dictating works, because your mind keeps cranking out stuff that is too precious to loose. Happy Independence Day Holliday, Y’all! ?? ? ?? ?
Glad of good news about diabetes. Dealing with pain even for short term is never easy. Healing always takes time. Must be exercises that will help
I know you will not ignore body warnings again, right?
Do what you need to do.
I’m so glad it’s nothing diabetes related. I’m a physician, and I have an accent. After reading your post about the hands, I was so angry, and so sad. Some people are not to be believed. I felt your hand problem sounded like overuse, and wanted to recommend Dragon, which is widely used in Medicine and is really good with accents. It was hard not to say anything, as it seemed to me like you needed some space.
The dictation thing gets better, although for a long time, I would talk like I was dictating, especially if I was tired, and that was embarrassing and hilarious. So, a voicemail to a pharmacist could go:” I’m calling about Mr. Smith period.”
Hope you feel better very soon.
I work in Healthcare IT, and I’ve helped set up Dragon for Medical w/Nuance. It’s a great package, even if Nuance is a competitor of my current company. 🙂
Relieved for you that it is a physical injury and not something more serious underlying! All the best for healing. I truly wish we had magic in the world like in Hidden Legacy World… lol… I was reading Wildfire last night as my ‘bedtime story’ to get my mind off a job interview for a teaching position I had this morning… so I could sleep. If I could have any magic it would be a mental kind, so my shy voice would not have taken over this morning! So frustrated with myself.
I hope the interview went better than you thought Jenn and your obvious sincerity communicated itself to the interviewing panel. If you get the job, congratulations and if you didn’t, I’m sorry and I hope the interview practice helps you next time.
Thank you so much!
I’m glad you have a “prescription” for rest. I know that must be very difficult for you! But we want you to feel better for yourself first. When you’re not dictating, maybe you could find some time to read, yourself 🙂
What a good idea and I second the relief that your hands will heal with time and care.
I use Dragon and have for about ten years, upgrading regularly. Dragon is kind of dumb to start, but it gets smarter and smarter as it learns to understand you. I’m so glad this is overuse. I was really afraid it was psoriatic arthritis (I have a daughter with that condition and one of the symptoms is splinter hemorrhages) and that it would be a lifelong problem for you. I know right now isn’t easy, but do follow the doctors orders and take care of your hands!!!
Much, move love to you and your hands! I will always wait to read what you write…no matter how long it takes. Sending you virtual tea and chocolates.
+1
+1 Sending lots of love to you and to Gordon too. I am just thankful that you both have shared your talents with us. Your books have brought me so much joy and happiness. I will also wait however long it takes. You take care of you first and foremost.
+1
Like everyone else here, sending you lots of love and healing vibes!
I stumbled upon your live session, was it yesterday?, and loved hearing both of you in person. So happy you work as such a team and support each other. Glad there is no diabetes and hope your voice and Gordon’s typing lasts until your hands are better.
I bet the injury to your hands are driving you crazy. Thanks Gordon for helping Ilona out by typing for her, so she doesn’t go insane. I’ll keep you guys in my prayers for a quick recovery and that Diamond Fire goes smoothly. Can’t thank you enough for for the q & a, Ilona covering Gordon’s mouth made my night?
+1
Rest and take care of yourself.
Your poor fingers! I hope the rest will get them to as good as new. I wonder if ice or heat would help. That’s what they do in PT with different injuries. For my shoulder it was ice. For some necks it was heat. Something to relieve any of the pain you feel besides meds. You’d have to ask a PT which would be better though because they know which is better for what.
Can’t wait for Diamond Fire and Innkeeper. I always want more but I can wait patiently.
So glad your blood sugar levels are all good – and that rest and relaxation should help your hands. I hope Dragon learning curve is fast for you so you can easily switch between typing and dictating as the mood (and fingers) dictate.
Rest away! We can, of course, wait for all the goodness that will happen once your hands are feeling better.
Just wanted to say that I fell deeply in love with Kate from book one, ages ago and have bought everything. I read incredibly fast so I try to never look for publication dates or if I know them, I try to forget so it is like Christmas and then I found Innkeeper about halfway through the 1st one. Of course it fed all the magic in my imagination in between new books and this was glorious. I just wanted to counter some of the other comments, not sure how people don’t understand Innkeeper is a side gig of love and you have other work and plus..umm, life. Anyway…I come back every few weeks or so and then have a few to read or I somehow forget to check for months and it is Christmas! Keep on keeping. Save those hands!
Dragon does work. I’ve used it for years in my profession as a patent paralegal. It’s like a marriage though. You have to work at it! Train and retrain and then resign yourself to the fact that it’s going to insert random punctuation. Also, proofreading is more intensive. Spell check won’t help. It will insert the wrong word, but it will be spelled right! Good luck!
Yup. I also use Dragon for legal and accounting educational writing, and, this marriage analogy is a very good one! It will ‘learn’ your vocabulary and will get better at understanding your accent.
I am sad to hear that you have injured your hands, but, relieved to hear that it is not even more serious. I hope that you recover quickly. Having suffered similarly in the past, I am glad to say that rest, and then when possible, prescribed physio and regular appropriate exercises really can help….
Personally, I find that using Dragon for initial writing, and, the keyboard for editing works well for me. Everyone is different. As noted above, you get more typos than spelling errors from using dictating software vs typing, so, it has changed the way that I proof-read.
Once over the (mutual) learning curve, I found that I was faster and more productive with Dragon. Due to other injuries, I find it easier to work standing up (I have had a standing desk for nearly 20 years), so I now have a wireless headset, and, dictate whilst walking up and down in my office. I am reliably informed that I wave my hands in the air and generally get quite enthusiastic at certain points (often when I am giving feedback for students’ work). It is just as well that I mostly work from home…
I haven’t been using Dragon recently* but I was pretty impressed with it. Enough so to recheck whether a Linux version has been released (Caroline, I love your descriptions).
I don’t know how much you’ve already looked into these features, but there’s a pretty rich set of command and control features, which are useful for editing and also for controlling the rest of the computational environment. (I was banned from using keyboards or mice at all at work because my doctor was a rat bastard. And because Microsoft is kind of hard core about keeping engineers from overdoing it, possibly because of past experience.) Spoken keyboard shortcuts, combined with the radio alphabet were really useful “Press control alt charlie key” and that sort of thing. Generally the radio alphabet is useful, as it’s less error prone than just spelling aloud. There’s a whole mouseclick interface, but that’s only really a thing if you’re avoiding mousing as well (and if that’s a thing, there are also so many alternative pointer devices that are probably more efficient – I used to use an Easy Ball with my feet). There’s a whole ability to create macros which can also be great, though I leaned on it more than most as I was writing code.
Generally, there are a lot of features, and the time you put in learning them is well rewarded. I can’t claim to be diligent, MS just hired me a trainer, and then I had friends at the company that owned Dragon at the time. But I did come out of it with a lot of respect for the capabilities of the software.
* only because of OS incompatibility issues.
Hmmm. I will look into that (I have been too lazy about investigating these possibilities) – thank you very much Tylikcat!
I should add that my Dragon-dictating ‘performances’ are usually wearily witnessed by our resident greyhound…. who very much does not appreciate any interruption to his 22-hour a day snoozing target.
Well, you’re inspiring me – it’s not like it’s news that too much keyboard time is bad for me (I’m an ergo and posture freak, and the spine surgery did help…) but the image of being able to get up and move while writing really has me thinking. Even if I have to install a Windows VM to do it :-S
(Gah – I haven’t dealt with proprietary software in years.)
I could get one of those big ass screens I was looking at at Costco and mount it on my library wall…
I sympathise on the proprietary software front…, I use open-source software whenever I can (albeit my various university employers over the years have had rather….ummmm…. different views). When it comes to voice recognition software, however, I have very reluctantly concluded that Dragon is the most effective option at present. Combined with a good wireless headset, I have found it to be really flexible: pelvic injuries from car accidents mean that, for me, standing and typing at length – although better than sitting and typing – is still an issue.
A big wall-mounted screen would be lovely, though. Hmmmm…. more ideas.
When I moved over to Dragon, I printed a list of the main Dragon grammar and editing instructions and had them in plain view – it helped.
Everyone is different, but I suspect for some people moving to dictating software like Dragon, the main issue is the lack of haptic feedback. I am not sure that there is an answer to this – other than practice – but for me, it did help to try to channel my inner Star Trek (“Computer…”).
I was really impressed with Dragon when I was using it fifteen years ago – and it seems like people are running Dragon under Wine because there aren’t reasonable FOSS options. So, perhaps it’s time. Though, ugh – I scrubbed Windows off all my current boxes within minutes of getting them, and it’s almost a ritual purity thing, I swear. (After giving most of my twenties to MS, I have a few twitches! …and then when I left I ended up in a situation where they paid for my research for the first two and a half years, which was the sharpest of mixed blessings. But when I fled across the country, I went all FOSS all the time.)
When I was wrapped up in spine injury v1.0 (er, maybe v1.5…) I got really interested in the technical aspects of input technology – not in the least beccause I spent a while in there as an accessibility advocate. (Things to do if you’re bored: turn a screen reader on while you have Dragon on and let them talk to each other…) It breaks down into two different issues – one of is the text input, which is actually really a pain. Coming up with options that are fast and accurate and aren’t either a keyboard or voice recognition is really hard. Maybe some kind of brain-computer interface along the way? (I’m both serious and want to make sarcastic remarks about the practical state of the research.)
The other is manipulation of everything else in the computational environment – selecting, moving around, opening, closing, etc. And that, I think is where a 3D interface with, say, haptic feedback gloves (they can be super light weight, and don’t have to be full gloves) could work very well. People still talk about the Minority Report interface – not because it was the world’s best design, but because there aren’t that many examples of one like it being visualized.
I mean, let’s step back a bit. Computers are amazing, and there are all kinds of wonderful things to do on them. A traditional interface is also hell on your body – sure, moreso if you have an existing injury, but really, on everyone’s body. (In theory, my injury was doing just fine until I was a dumbass and overdid everything and tried to work myself to death, because young over achieving idiot in her twenties. Also, playing serious politics.) What you describe, in terms of being up and moving around is pretty close to my dream of being able to control my computer via full body movement (which is impractical, I just like to move.) Ahaha… maybe I should consider this as a research focus in a few years. Though I’m really liking my robotics community.
BTW, last time I was at Costco, not only did they have nice and surprisingly inexpensive 4K screens, they had these nifty wall mounts that you could pull out and turn ninety degrees. I had no excuse, but I will admit to tech lust. I might develop an excuse – and you have one already.
Sending healing thoughts from across the pond! You need to rest so as much as it pains me we can wait for innkeeper. Get Diamond Fire done (as I’m assuming it’s contractual) then take time off!!
Hugs,
I used to have similar issues couple of years back and it sucks. I am a software engineer and typing is all I do all day, every day. Here are couple of tips when I was experiencing pain in my hands:
1) Different keyboard – it made an enormous difference. Mine is “KeyOvation Adjustable Keyboard” and I keep my hands in this position: https://www.ergodirect.com/images/goldtouch/keyboard-hand_1.jpg
My husband (also software engineer) went more extreme and got himself https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/ It takes time to learn how to type on it, but it has an advantage that you are forced to keep your hands in a correct position and use minimal movement when typing.
2) I used to have pain from elbow down. Tennis elbow strap was a huge help. From what I understand it re-distributes the tension along the muscle similar to pressing a string of a guitar. Example: https://www.amazon.com/Bracoo-Tennis-Golfer-Elbow-Support-Compression/dp/B006LA6U3O
These days I don’t use it. My massage therapist showed me how I can use the elbow of one hand to put a pressure point and massage the other hand. Check out DIY Elbow Pain Massage on youtube – it might help.
I am sure other things are also important (angle of your elbow, switch from sitting to standing for 5 minutes every hour, don’t cross your legs) but keyboard+elbow strap did a trick for me and I didn’t have any issues since then.
Hope it helps and that you get better soon!
Hurrah!!! So glad it’s nothing more serious for you!! Although as a horse rider who rides despite injuries and understands the trouble with having no choice but to follow doctors instructions at times, I am laughing as well because I know the difficulties in being good for the long term and how amused Gordon must be!!
Heal well.
Oh, and I just finished Iron and Magic today (been a tough week, normally that would be an in a day read for me!) And I adored it. I’d been looking forward to it but I honestly wasn’t sure where I’d end up feeling about it because as much as I adore bad guy Hugh (one of the most entertaining characters and properly evil to boot) I wasn’t sure I could get behind him as a ‘hero’ But I shouldn’t have worried. The book is spectacular and I loved every moment.
SO MANY TIMES when reading that I found myself saying, “I can’t believe I’m rooting for HUGH. Geez.” I loved it too!!!
Hoping for a quick recovery! And perhaps you should continue dictating for a long time even after that to get those hands in tip top shape!
A side note… I cannot believe how fast Diamond Fire will be done. Even though it’s a novella it still blows the mind how quick your minds churn!
Glad you have a recovery plan & congratulations on Magic and Iron success!
Once you start typing again you might consider using rubber finger tips such as “Pack of 20 Studded Rubber Finger Cone Thimblettes in 5 sizes For Note Counting and Page Turning” on Amazon to cushion and spread the impact to your finger tips. They have a number of choices. Since I haven’t used them they may or not work or they may screw up your typing but in theory they may help. (It appears that each manufacturer has their own sizing.)
Delighted to hear that your hands aren’t symptomatic of diabetes, both my sisters are diabetic and one of them has arthritis in her hands. She’s had a steroid injection in her foot and now intends to have the other one done, she found the thumb one more painful and less effective though and isn’t having that redone.
I’ll be buying your books when you’re done writing them, so from a purely selfish point of view – please take care of your hands so there are many more for me to read in the future.
I feel like such a dunce (and old). I completely forgot about the live QA from Thursday/Friday to Saturday. Duh. Now I am looking forward to the upload. Thanks for the reminder.
Take care of yourselves and like most of your followers I will be delighted when the next Innkeeper installment gets here – on your timetable. Feel better and I hope the dictating software works well for you.
Whew! I am glad that you got a diagnosis of hand rest and it was not something more serious. There is only one of you (and two of your hands) so please take care of yourself. Your hands have typed millions of words for you and they now need a much deserved vacation. Don’t cheat, as tempting as it may be. A while ago one of the regular guys at my gym hurt his shoulder. The doctor told him to take 6 weeks off – he took two weeks off and damaged his shoulder to the point where it needed 6 months to recover.
I look forward to the Twitch session. I have read Iron & Magic twice now and just love it. So many great sections and quotes I just love. Thank you two again for taking it from April Fool’s joke to a trilogy. You’re the best.
I’ve been reading your books for what feels like forever, and have always been ASTOUNDED by how quickly new releases come out. Your dedication to various story lines and the craft of writing itself is amazing.
That said? When you were prescribed “rest,” I envisioned Doolittle looking at Kate with much despair……
That made me laugh!
Good one Jaime!
So happy to hear that you have a plan for your hands. Thank you so much for all you do for your fans; not only writing amazing books but your blog and the snippets, and the video interviews. I so enjoy being part of the BDH. Please know that 99% of us are always grateful and want you to put your health and family first. I know it is hard to ignore the complainers. They need to develop a span filter for those emails and comments so you don’t have to deal with them.
Finish your contract work, then take a trip to Florida (or anywhere, really) and let your hands truly heal. Have a similar problem with overuse in my wrist – it’s taken 6 weeks to alleviate the pain since I didn’t give it 2 weeks off! The BDH will gladly wait for you guys to rejuvenate. Your last 2 years have been incredibly busy and you deserve a long rest 🙂
x 100
I completely am in agreement on this.
For everything you both do you also need time to relax. Good vibes being sent your way.
Such good news about your hands! Take your prescription like a good girl and rest those precious fingers!
You’ve been in my prayers. My husband is a diabetic (just pills so far and I hope and pray we can keep it that way). He still has a struggle because of it and I worry about him a lot. I’m relieved for you that you don’t have to deal with that!
I want to apologize again for all the really ungrateful people who complained that the gift that is the Innkeeper serial was not getting here fast enough to suit them. Some people weren’t raised right, as my mother would say.
Thanks so much for all you do and here’s hoping for a speedy recovery!
Also, no knitting. Typing wreaked my hands and knitting finished them off. I had to give away a fortune in yarn. If you rest now hopefully all will be well.
I was just thinking that too Helen. No knitting or crocheting or anything else handwork for longer that the 2 weeks your doctor prescribed, Ilona. Also, keep your forearms and hands warm. The blood circulating will help speed up the healing process. Cold hands, fingers, and forearms will cramp horribly.
Speaking as someone who did not let her hands rest and paid surgical consequences; try rest, ice and maybe a chocolate martini
Ilona,so happy for you that’s it’s not diabetes. Sorry that you have sore and injured hands and glad they can come right with rest. Thank you again for all the amazing words.
What a relief to read that you don’t have a serious disease! (When my auto-immune conditions hit, my hands swelled up until they weren’t useable.) Rest your hands and train the Dragon to understand your speech!
You are in my thoughts and prayers. I hope that the hands free time will not be too frustrating. If you forget and start using your hands when you shouldn’t, like I did, try some soft socks on your hands. My ‘loving’ big brother sent me sock monkey puppets. I recommend some thin soft socks that won’t make your hands sweat but will be a reminder to not use your hands for things.
Have fun with it… be the Queen for the week and enjoy having your helpers! (ask for a really bright glittery crown!)
Very glad to hear that it’s not diabetes related.
Hope the dictation issues work themselves out quickly and that the rest period is enough. Once contracted work is finished take some time off. We’ll wait for renewal
of Innkeeper.
I suspect that your love of knitting hasn’t given your hands much of a break either.
I am glad to hear that your hand problems aren’t symptomatic of a more serious health issue. I have heard of Dragon & other dictating programs & wondered if it wouldn’t help you. Back in the 90’s I had gotten a similar program (because I never learned how to type) but got frustrated with it. Luckily my job doesn’t depend on my ability to type & I manage just fine typing with only my right hand.
I appreciate all that you do for us. And while I admit that I’m jonesing something fierce for the next installment of Sweep of the Blade, it would never occur to me that sending hate mail your way was going to get it out any faster. (big eye-roll)
So take care of yourself (and hands). We will be waiting for you when you are able to create more stories 🙂
Hope your hands are better soon and who knows, you may actually come to enjoy Dragon speaking
I’m so sorry that you’ve had pain and I hope you are better soon. I have Dragon on my phone and it’s great. It’s really weird at first but this horrible experience could have give you a new fantastic tool. Thank goodness for technology and magic. Sending you positive thoughts.
I am so glad that your worst fears were not realized. Just remember to drink plenty of soothing fluids so you don’t lose your voice too.
I can’t believe some trolls would badger you on the timeliness of Innkeeper installments. I just check every day and when I new one is posted it is like getting an unexpected present.
?Thank you for the thousands of hours of reading enjoyment you have given me over the years. Now that the final Kate book is coming, it is time to reread the series beginning with book 1. ???
That is what marriage is about, team work even if there cackling involved. Your health should always take precedence. Glad your not a diabetic also. Thanks for all your hard word and dedication it’s much appreciated, but rest when must.
Take a well deserved vacation. Multiple books per year plus Innkeeper…you’ve spoiled us and we like it, so take a vacation so that the spoilage can continue. Glad to know that it’s not diabetes and that it is treatable. Take care of yourselves.
I’m so happy you have found a solution that lets your body heal and rest as much as possible. Yay no diabetes!!! I devoured the dead tree version of Iron and Magic. It was super yummy! Thank you and get well!
glad to hear the hand situation is requiring rest and not something much more serious medically. I was a nurse for 43 years and have a husband who often does not listen to what the doctors say so please do rest your hands. I enjoy reading your books too much to have you have to stop for health reasons. As for the very rude email from the “person” ignore him. From what I have read in your blog comments your true fans will wait until you are 100%. I just go back and reread until then.
I’m so glad that you have a good diagnosis, and I, too, hope that the rest will help. Dragon is supposed to “learn” your voice and accent, so perhaps the dictating will become more useful, and less amusing.
It bothers me when people write comments suggesting a direction for your writing (plot ideas) because according to my parents (who were both writers), it snarls up the creative flow.
And it annoys me when the commenters seem to assume that you owe them anything at all. You are the writers. You get to write what you want, when you can or wish to write it. Of course commercial work comes first. I want Maude too. And I very much appreciate the gift of this story. Thank you. Whenever she reappears, I will be grateful.
I’m glad the hands weren’t bad for diabetes or stuff. I’m really sorry they are hurt. I hope you get them well and the injuries never come back to haunt you. Or at least haunt you minimally. (A couple of years ago, both my hands were unusable, and it is scary and upsetting to have them BOTH be swollen and painful. I am so sorry.)
Good luck with Dragon. Based on reading over the years, it is a pain to get used to and to train, but if you keep at it, it eventually becomes useful. Maybe even quite useful.
Good luck, Gordon and Ilona.
Bone broth (made with grass fed, antibiotic beef bones) will speed the healing. Epsom salt soaks will help too. And wine, of course! I hope you feel better soon!
Your poor hands. Enjoy your break and rest well. Might I suggest watching the World Cup? I’m not usually a soccer fan, but every four years I have to watch the world’s best players battle it out. There are grown men sobbing, Oscar-worthy acting over a slight trip, and some really awesome footwork. All the drama should take your mind off your predicament for at least 90 minutes each match!
Don’t let a small number of entitled, spoilt haters get to you. They sound terribly rude! I’d imagine it was pretty awful reading all that negativity when you’re in pain and feeling down.
Just know that there are many of us out there who love your work and appreciate all the effort that goes into it. Sending you lots of positive energy!
Great news about the non-diabetes. Typing — yikes!!! Good thing Gordon is there to help out — albeit while laughing. ? I type nowhere near what you do and I think I’ve got 20 years on you, but I especially feel it in my thumbs.
Finished Iron and Magic this weekend. You guys don’t disappoint!!! Eagerly waiting #2. Thanks, as always, for your WONDERFUL books!!!
This is my second comment ever(I think), definitely my less than tenth comment ever.
I am so happy to read the good news about your hands. I will also send good vibes that your marriage will withstand the dictation process.
I have met you guys twice, and read most of your books. I think you’re (both) pretty great, and I wish you a complete recovery.